Has Lebron surpassed Magic/Bird in your All Time Greatest List?

How can people knock him off completely for not playing well in 2 finals when he was the singular star?

If he had anyone the caliber of Parish and Mchale, Worthy and Kareem, do you not think he would've had much better stats?

 

He didn't do it three times in a row since he didn't hit 90% of his free throws. You're not even a fan at this point and looking up his stats as as you go arent you. Gj BOF.

Bird has only hit 50/40 four times his career. Congrats, that's all it takes to be the undisputed best shooter in your opinion huh? Reggie and Nash both have done better with less stacked teams.

 

Reggie only did it once, and Nash never even averaged 20 ppg.

Sorry, fail.

"That's all it takes?" Lol, yes it's so easy.

 

Which of Wade or Bosh is on the level of Bird and Isiah? I understand folks want to use the teaming up angle to knock LeBron, but if you are going to do so can you at least use relevant comparisons? Something like "If Magic teamed up with Dennis Johnson and George Gervin".

 

i can't blame the 2007 finals loss on him but 2011 was 100% his fault and what will hurt in in discussions when you compare him to jordan who was dominate every time he played in the finals.

then again some people forget about this.

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Great point. More than half the posters in here are saying Lebron is still below Magic and Bird, yet somehow his lesser teammates Wade and Bosh have been elevated to that level.

 

Had Bird not existed, Magic wins 7 rings. Bird wins 5 rings without Magic in the league.

There is no one really close to Lebron in the league right now, like Bird and Magic fighting against each other each year.

Do you see my point above. Magic had to beat Parish and McHale and Bird had to beat Worthy and Kareem. Not to mention, Moses, Dr J and arguably the best team ever. The Lakers, Celtics and 76ers were incredible teams. You can't look at just one and say "Lebron would dominate with that team" unless you also be fair to Magic, Bird and Moses by stated how great their competition was. There was no better competition to win a title than in the '80s.

 

Jordan averaged 32, 8 and 8 in 1989. Not one of those 4 came close to that. Let's keep jordan out of this.

 

^people still use un-pace adjusted stats?

LeBron's regular season numbers from his peak season/playoff runs are up with Jordan and Wilt and nobody else.

This past season was his worst one from a PER standpoint in 7 years (a mere 29), and it's still substantially higher than anything Bird or Magic ever put up in their entire careers.

 

Not even close:

Spoiler

 

Lebron put up 31-7-6.6 in a slower paced era. You can't say he isn't close.

 

You do have to consider that PER is by design is adjusted to the era. For every season, 15 is the average PER for an NBA minute, so it's possible that the talent is stretched too thin in this era (look how many 30+ PER seasons have happened recently, Paul, Wade, James, Durant, a while ago but also McGrady), compared to the first 30-40 years in the league (just Wilt and Jordan).

I rank Lebron above both of the 80's wonder duo by a comfortable margin and I rank Bird over Magic (Bird did lead the league in PER twice, while Magic never did).

Lebron led the league in PER 6 times and was 2nd twice. Only Jordan can match him but Lebron probably has another good 5 years left so he should be able to surpass him.

By the way, Lebron is again quietly having one of the greatest post season runs ever with a 30+ PER and an unheard of .65+ TS%.

 

I've been over this a bunch, but the "watered down league" argument pretty much flies in the face of every bit of empirical evidence we have.

Human athletic performance increases over time, in part because of training, etc, but also in part because participation increases over time. The sheer amount of the globe's population with access to basketball and high-level basketball instruction & training is probably at least 10 or 20 times what it was in the 70's and 80's, as well as the economic incentives to do so being more powerful.

It's possible that basketball (according to mostly retired players blabbing at halftime on TV shows promoting their own self-interest) is the lone exception, somehow peaked 30 years ago when its development began to really explode, and then, counterintuitively, declined despite all of this. But there's no evidence to support this.

 

Lebron is a shooting guard Majic point Bird forward.

 

As much as a flop Lebron is, he will easily go down as one of the greatest players we watched. Gifted to play the game of Basketball.

 

Put Magic or Bird with the same cast in Cleveland they wouldn't be winning anything either.

People tend to forget that Bid and Magic played with other Hall of Famers on their team...Lebron best teammate in Cleveland was Big Z....

 

that is totally true... the nba is a lot more athletic and talented now than it was in the 80s because of better training and a lot more incentive (money)... however I don't think the skill is there when you compare now to the 80s..things like how high players can jump, what kind of dunks they can do-- has replaced shooting, and great teamwork... I think the best teams of the 80s and 90s would beat the best teams right now..

 

Lebron and Dwade should compete with each other for rings, just like Bird and Magic did. So the question becomes: How many rings would Magic and Bird have if they play together?

 

You sir are very wise, I have been saying the same thing forever, and with Jordan it would be something like Barkley and Sam Perkins. If your going to make a team up argument against lebron dont make wade and bosh top 5 talents just to diminish lebron.

Lebron would have dominated the 80s and would have been a top player in the 90s. The 80s are known for incredibly skilled players, if you watch games every single player was almost automatic from 17 ft in. However you unleash Lebron in the 80s he would probably injure most defenders that tried to guard him there was NO athletes like Lebron back then. As great as Barkley was, he was a terror athletically to handle in the mid and late 80s, and Barkley was no Lebron.

Personally if you look at the numbers and overall impact, Lebron is creeping by Bird now and soon he will Eclipse Magic as well. Then its gonna come down to MVP's Rings and Global Impact to Eclipse His Airness. Personally I think he will get the rings and mvps. The Global Impact and love Michael Jordan had will be difficult to reproduce, maybe the media coverage might help.

I will leave it at this, if Lebron doesn't surpass Jordan one day, no one ever will.

 

Magic > Lebron > Bird