I like Bev, but I'll indulge you. PF > PTS + AST Mon 11/11 vs TOR 4 PF, 1 PT, 0 AST Tue 2/20 @ GSW 6 PF, 2 PTS, 3 AST PF = PTS + AST Fri 1/24 vs MEM 5 PF, 3 PTS, 2 AST Wed 3/5 @ ORL 5 PF, 4 PTS, 1 AST Tue 3/11 @ OKC 5 PF, 2 PTS, 3 AST
I don't want to have a long argument with you about who should be starting, but I think it's laughable that you say this about Lin, someone who's played with the Rockets for two years, yet you want a recently called up rookie to start when he himself has not had 3 consecutive games playing well. Beverley is a better and more pesky defender, but don't act like he's the savior of this team. We need our entire team, especially Dwight, healthy if we're going to make any run in the playoffs. Don't get me wrong. I've been pretty disappointed with Lin many times this season, but recently he's been playing decently. And yes, it is an over-exaggeration. Last year it would not have been considering there was an influx of LOFs spitting out delusional things often. This year that's hardly been the case, with very few, if any, posters blaming "racist conspiracy theories" for Lin. And I don't think I have ever seen a poster say "Lin is the leader of this team and everyone else is holding him back." It is complete exaggeration. One thing that's a clear is that Lin gets overly-criticized for his poor play. Whether he deserves it or not is another question. At this point I feel like the "LOHs" are more annoying than the "LOFs" because of how many people can just say things like "Lin is garbage" or "Lin will be out of the league in two years" and if you come in to defend him then you're blasted. And this year I've seen way more irrational Lin "haters" than irrational Lin fans, opposite of last year.
I was curious to see if this was true and here it is: 2013 - 2014 11/11 vs Tor 24 mins 1 pt 0 ast 4 pf 2/20 vs GW 37mins 2 pts 3 ast 6 pf 2012 - 2013 4/12 vs Mem 23 mins 3 pts 1 ast 5 pf There are a few more where he didn't play significant minutes. He also had a few games where his points and assists equaled his foul total. Bev knows his role really well and excels at it.
I'd like you, and other CF members to address my posts head on instead of dismissing it as LOF behavior. If we can just admit that Bev (who I like) is a role player whose best attributes are intangibles, or passes the "eye test" of so many rockets fans, or does a great job of handing the ball off to Harden and getting out of his way, then we would have nothing to talk about. On any other title aspiring team, bev would be the 9th or 10th man, check Miami, Indy, SAS, OKC, LAC...but on CF, he's apparently superman, the guy we can't live without LOL...If you guys think Patrick Beverley is the difference between winning and losing a title, I don't even know what to say to you. btw thank you for the part I bolded, one of the few redeeming remarks on CF
The problem with "no stat" all stars is that they are always overrated by the eye test and underrated by the box score. Beverley is a great example - 1) he'll pick the pocket of a point guard, and then get blown by for being too aggressive. 2) he'll get a huge rebound, but then get stuck out of position because he's always trying to chase offensive rebounds instead of getting back in transition. 3) he'll hit a big three and dunk on Bosh, but then jack up 4 threes and miss another three jumpers. 4) he'll shut down a player for a stretch, and then pick up 3 fouls and award them free throws at the worst times. Beverley is inconsistent, just in different ways than Lin. Due to their roles, Beverley's inconsistency is hidden. His flashy plays attract way more attention than his miscues, despite the fact that a Beverley missed three is no different than a Lin missed three. Tack on the fact that people vastly overrate the "pitbull" mentality and its effect on team success, and you don't have to guess why Beverley is hailed as the savior of Houston. Lin on the other hand is scrutinized by both LOFs and LOHs. Every single misstep he takes is extrapolated to some kind of character flaw, and nobody gives him the benefit of the doubt even when it is obvious he is hurt or playing out of position. It is frustrating to people who want to see Lin succeed when other fans throw him under the bus for every little thing instead of viewing his play as a whole (good, not great in his role).
A stats challenge! Challenge accepted! 2013-01-09 2 points, 2 assists, 5 fouls 2013-03-08 0 points, 1 assist, 3 fouls 2013-03-15 0 points, 1 assists, 2 fouls 2013-03-17 0 points, 0 assists, 1 foul 2013-04-12 3 points, 1 assist, 5 fouls http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/beverpa01/gamelog/2013/ 2013-11-11 1 point, 0 assists, 4 fouls 2014-01-24 3 points, 2 assists, 5 fouls 2014-02-20 2 points, 3 assists, 6 fouls 2014-03-11 2 points, 3 assists, 5 fouls http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/beverpa01/gamelog/2014/ So, he's been better this season... but yah, I'd consider that more than 3 even if you factor out the games where his fouls is only equal to points + assists. Doesn't change the fact that Beverley is a good fit, but really shouldn't toss out numbers that don't exist. Gotta watch the selective memory thing. :grin:
This is a great post - I think one of the reasons for all the scrutiny is the difference in the eye test. Bev's eye test is flattering, Lin's is not - meaning Bev always looks like he's hustling his butt off - every second. Lin doesn't give that appearance, even when he is as he's less animated about it.
Most people gauge potential by offense, so in that sense i believe Lin has a higher ceiling than Beverley. I also agree that Lin would be more valuable to teams who need offense from there pg. Teams like the Heat or other teams that don't really need offense from there starting PG would value Beverley higher. Yes Beverley is a role player. A defensive specialist who isn't a traditional pg and who is good at limiting his turnovers and hitting spot up jumpers. I don't think its an insult at all to call Beverley a role player.
Agreed on all fronts. There is an overreaction to Lin fandom despite the fact that it is no longer really relevant. So many normally rational Rockets fans will blast anybody who shows any support for Lin, and will come out of the woodwork as soon as Lin has a bad game claiming that they knew it all along. Hating on Lin is the new fad. You're cool if you blast a reasonable moderate poster for being a LOF, because it shows that you're one of the elite, old-school "Rockets Only Fans". Bonus points if you lament nostalgically about the loss of former point guards that were supposed to be better than him. America loves a good witchhunt...
Nice work as usual (and Exel), don't bother though, that guy is the vice president of LOH, I've been going for pages with some of these people, converted one reasonable person, but parasites like larvs and chen still lurk
Right. Both players bring different "intangibles" to the table. Not enough posters acknowledge how Lin affects the ball movement and how he collapses the defense. Not enough posters recognize that Lin is still a average to above average defender despite not visibly frustrating his assignment the same way Beverley does.
This. Players role and value can change immensely from team to team. Put Parsons on Miami or OKC and he's just not going to be as important to those teams as he is to us. Beverley is a great fit for us. He is a role player that fills a role we desperately need filled. His value is higher for us than other teams.
Yup. It isn't an insult to call Bev a role player. Bev fills a role here, just like Derek Fisher did on the championship Lakers.
Not an insult at all to call Bev a role player, just ridiculous when some people act like he's a superstar difference maker. Skill wise, his game is extremely limited but he brings energy. My issue is that, having played in HS and College, the PG position has always been about offense. The reason being is that our coaches often tell us that PGs are way too quick to stay in front of anyway, so defense is really out the window at that point. Instead, the PG on defense needs to contain him into a space on the court and play the screen roll game properly. Positions 3-5 are the real keys to defense because they deter shots in the paint.
Not that I think the new RPM stat put out on ESPN is definitive proof and the only thing to look at, it does have Bev as the most impactful player on our team. He's certainly not a superstar, but the way this team is built he IS important. And really that's all well and good that you played and that you were taught that PGs are all about offense, but it doesn't meant it's always the case. It's been stated over and over and over here, but all you have to do is look at many of the championship teams of the last 20 years and you will find plenty of 3 and D PGs.
Of course having a PG that plays good D is a benefit, but certainly not a necessity imo. As for his importance, just how important is he? Do you honestly believe he is the difference between winning a round in the playoffs? If we look back at championship teams of the past 20 years, they either A. have a stud PG or B. have a superstar big man.....you won't find any team that relied on a Bev type player in their top 7 Lakers (5 titles) Pau Gasol, Shaq Spurs (4 titles) Duncan, Tony Parker (stud PG) Boston (1 title) - KG Miami (3 titles) - Lebron (basically a PF), Bosh Dallas (1 title) - Dirk, Tyson Chandler
I think any player who gets 25+ minutes on a contending team is pretty damn important and depending on how the team is built CAN be the difference between winning a round in the playoffs.
Ok fair enough, we'll have to wait and see how the Rockets do in the playoffs and how Bev plays when he comes back to see if your statement holds true
I think the problem with this kind of analysis is that even 20 years worth of finals winners is far too small of a sample size to predict the importance, or lack thereof, of 3&D vs stud PG. This is especially true since playing styles and stacked positions change over time. If you recall, there were tons of superstar 2s and combo guards in the early 2000s, while there were tons of great big men in the 90s. You would have had to build your team differently to defend against those guys. Not to say that I have a better way of predicting... The general sense I get from the past is that you need multiple creators on the perimeter, with at least one being a go-to guy. You can win without having a post presence so long as you have enough perimeter scoring and the ability to defend the paint (i.e. Heat, Bulls). Of course, the most consistently good teams had both elite perimeter and post scoring (Lakers, Spurs, Boston, Houston back in the day...). With the way the Rockets are built today, I think its more important to have more perimeter creators than to have a "lockdown" defender, especially at the PG. Dwight is not a consistent post threat, so we need more perimeter help to account for that. Lin is enough of a two way player that he isn't going to get murdered by the great point guards. This is not to say that we can't win with Bev, or that I have any true data to back up my above claims. These are just some observations I've made over the years from watching bball.
First of all..... Why the hell would I not like Lin? This excuse is so freaking overused its not funny.... Before Harden came to Houston in a Clutchfans poll asking who we think the best player on The Rockets is I voted LIN and posted a huge picture of him.. I got negative rep for it because I didn't spoiler.... Trying doing a little research before you label someone as a LIN hater.... With that said........ Lets be real for once and call it how it is... YES! Before Harden came he was suppose to be the best player on this team and our leader. When Harden came he was supposed to clearly be the 2nd best option and pair up with Harden to lead this team. From that day until now Parsons, Asik, Jones, Howard and Beverly have shown more than LIN..... Crap, If I had the choice between Lin and a healthy Delfino I would probably chose Delfino.... LIN was suppose to be one of the best players on this team and all he has shown is inconsistency. He is NOT what we expected coming from New York.... He has potential to be a great bench player but or starter on a sorry tanking team but The Rockets are trying to win a championship here... Yes I want to see what Canaan can do..... Despite the fact that he is rookie.... Want to know why? Because sometimes even rookies make a difference when they have the balls to shoot in crunch time...
