Is Johnny Football the Pick We Are Missing?

Angkor Wat · Apr 2, 2014

Patman87 said: ↑

Belichick is doing O'Brien a solid and he's going to evaluate JFF and let O'Brien know if Manziel is the right pick. He's gonna put him on the white board and on the practice field and push him to see if he breaks. If he survives, he then will be worthy
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Not sure why he would use of one of their 30 draft workout spots just to help out an old buddy

Bobbythegreat · Apr 2, 2014

Angkor Wat said: ↑

Not sure why he would use of one of their 30 draft workout spots just to help out an old buddy
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He wouldn't, he was just checking him out in case he drops and checking out the hype machine first hand. He brought in Tebow, maybe he'd want to bring in Manziel for a cup of coffee too.

Houst0ne · Apr 2, 2014

Patman87 said: ↑

Belichick is doing O'Brien a solid and he's going to evaluate JFF and let O'Brien know if Manziel is the right pick. He's gonna put him on the white board and on the practice field and push him to see if he breaks. If he survives, he then will be worthy
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Lol ok you believe that if you want. SMH

Rocketman95 · Apr 2, 2014

Guys, are you seriously debating that article?

J.R. · Apr 2, 2014

Drake - Draft Day (Johnny Manziel) :grin:

<iframe width="100%" height="450" scrolling="no" frameborder="no" src="https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/142630619&auto_play=false&hide_related=false&visual=true"></iframe>

Raven · Apr 2, 2014

Patman87 said: ↑

Belichick is doing O'Brien a solid and he's going to evaluate JFF and let O'Brien know if Manziel is the right pick. He's gonna put him on the white board and on the practice field and push him to see if he breaks. If he survives, he then will be worthy
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I think that's a very interesting theory, but what do the Patriots get out of it?

TheRealist137 · Apr 2, 2014

Raven said: ↑

I think that's a very interesting theory, but what do the Patriots get out of it?
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probably by lying and telling BOB that Manziel is legit even though he failed miserably and forcing a conference rival to waste their #1 pick + multiple years on him.

That's one less team Patriots have to worry about. I mean, this is Bellichick we're talking about.

J.R. · Apr 2, 2014

Patriots have met or will meet with the "big three" QBs.

Along with Texas A&M QB Johnny Manziel, the Patriots will host Teddy Bridgewater for a pre-draft visit on Wednesday.

This could be taken in a variety of ways. One, the Patriots realize Ryan Mallett is on the final year of his deal and it might be too expensive to sign him, so a long term backup or future starter is important due to Tom Brady's age. Or two, the Patriots play four of the top 10 teams in this year's draft, so Belichick is doing some advanced scouting on possible future starting quarterbacks of those teams (with the two most likely being the Vikings and Raiders). Both seem plausible.
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zeeshan2 · Apr 2, 2014

andxx1 said: ↑

Welp, it has been a while since I've posted on this forum so I'll try my best to deliver some thoughts on my opinion on the QB prospects. I would like to look at the top 3 QBs because I feel they are by far the best in this class.

First off I would like to point out that this QB class is extremely underrated. People get so caught up in the fact that there isn't an Andrew Luck among the class so it must be overrated which is a ridiculous thought. Wasn't supposed to be a once in a decade type prospect? It has only been two years. My thoughts after the pro day as far as the top 3 QBs has not changed. For me it goes:

1. Bridgewater
2. Manziel
3. Bortles

In my opinion those guys are easily the best in this class and I've heard analysts and guys on other message boards say there really isn't much distance and you can find a quality starter in later rounds; I've even heard that some could have the impact of a Russell Wilson or Colin Kaepernick. I'm not buying it. Lets look at these aforementioned QBs and I'll briefly explain my issues with them.

Carr- He played in a spread offense that did not require him to make reads and struggles vs pressure and most importantly the blitz. There are too many instances that he throws off his back foot vs the blitz and rushes his throws unnecessarily. I do not seem him improving enough where this is not an issue. Remember, the NFL is even faster and he'll face more complex defensive schemes.

Garoppolo- Really struggles vs any kind of pressure and is not calm at all under duress. Give him time he looks like a stud, when not given time, he has serious issues. Don't see him ever becoming a consistent starter.

McCarron- I do like McCarron a bit actually. My issue is that he can be good against pressure but is not as consistent as one would like. He does not have a great arm, combine that with the fact his accuracy can be inconsistent and it leads to an evaluation of a player who will likely be no more than a backup. Once again, though, I do like certain aspects of his game but not anywhere near the level of the top 3.

Mettenberger- Strong armed and a true pocket passer. Problem is that he has accuracy issues even though he improved significantly last year and he's a statue in the pocket. He barely has any pocket maneuverability and I worry about his knees at the next level.

Murray- Good QB when given time and is extremely experienced. He has the same issues as McCarron, in which I do like certain parts of his game but he tends to be extremely inconsistent under duress. Too many times against some of the better teams he has faced this issue has been exposed which leads to accuracy issues as well. I do love him as a backup though.

On to the top 3 but to make this even cooler I'll compare them to a few prospects from the past that have turned out well. I will only compare guys who I've watched some film on so certain prospects won't be concluded. I will be a bit more detailed with this year's top 3 but this will be a fun way to compare them to top prospects of the past. My top 10, for prospects I've seen, goes like this with write-ups on the top 6, hope to the final four in the future:

1. Andrew Luck- Not much can be said about Luck that has not already been said. He played in a pro-style offense which asked him to make multiple reads and even adjustments at the line of scrimmage. He possessed great size combined with good athleticism which even made him a threat on the run. As a prospect he had great pocket presence, in which he consistently remained calm under pressure. Not only did he remain calm under pressure, but also had the strength to complete passes even with defenders holding on to him. This has transferred over to the next level. What I loved about watching Luck on film was his ability to make tight window throws that also required timing. There are not many QBs at the college level who show the ability to do that, Luck did show that ability. The fact he made these throws consistently only helps him. My only concern was he could be a bit inconsistent in certain games in which he took more unnecessary risks than he needed to. While this helps him in certain ways it also leads to turnovers as well. This has actually been relatively consistent at the NFL level as well but the fact is he makes too many plays that other QBs just cannot make. One of my favorite throws by him.

2. Russell Wilson- If Russell Wilson had more size he'd easily be my top QB prospect and arguably one of the best prospects who has come around in a long time. He was really really good in college, I mean he broke the NCAA passer rating record in a pro-style offense. Anyone who watched him knew he was doing this with NFL throws and under NFL concepts. Wilson is what Manziel could be if he improves on the issues he has which I will discuss once I get to him. I'll say this Wilson worked with a good offensive line which he took advantage of for the most part. There were no questions as far as if he could make NFL throws at the next level because he already proved that he could. He displayed excellent pocket presence in which he rarely left the pocket too early. What I loved most about Wilson that has translated completely to the next level was his ability to throw on the move. His ability to make accurate throws while running away from a defender that could travel as deep as 30+ yards in the air was something to behold. As good as he was at making passes in the pocket this is what made him special and he showed no inconsistencies to his game that year. Michigan St. was the 6th ranked defense according to FO's FEI which is a defense's opponent-adjusted efficiency. He played them twice and played extremely well against them; 5 passing TDs to only 2 interceptions with 9.2 ypa. Wilson was a beast who was undervalued because of his lack of size and no other player with his skill set having as much success. I am so glad he has been able to prove his doubters wrong and hopefully his success opens the minds of NFL evaluators. An example of a tight window throw approximately 20 yards down the field that not every QB would have the timing, anticipation, and arm strength to make.

3. Teddy Bridgewater- I have Bridgewater, a QB who was just average at best at his pro-day at three ahead of big names like RG3, Cam Newton, and Johnny Manziel. Why you ask? I will admit his showing at his pro-day concerned me a bit and I had to go back and re-watch him. I came back from that and feel just about the same as I did before but maybe a bit more concerned. I'll discuss Bridgewater's weaknesses first. He is a QB that has a slight build and my largest concern with him is how inconsistent he is throwing passes that travel 25+ yards in the air. There are too many times he misses open receivers on these type of throws and many of them are just inexcusable misses. If he does not shore up this area he will not end up being much more than a very good backup. Bridgewater will likely be the 3rd maybe even the 4th QB taken in this draft because of these concerns. After all the film I've seen of him I believe many teams that do pass up on Bridgewater will sorely regret it. Bridgewater has weaknesses but his strengths cannot be understated.

His strengths, I believe, elevate him to a level in which he'll overcome his weaknesses. Bridgewater played in a pro-style offense in which he was given full control in being able to call his own plays and make adjustments at the LOS. He was required to make timing throws that required anticipation which he showed that he could make on a consistent basis. Remember how I talked about Luck's ability to make tight window throws when needed? Bridgewater does the same thing and he also shows an excellent ability to throw on the run which is extremely valuable at the next level. What I love the most about Bridgewater are his feet and his ability to use his feet for phenomenal pocket presence. This cannot be understated; Bridgewater has extremely quick feet which allow him to dropback quickly under center and show excellent pocket maneuverability. His poise under pressure and his ability to subtly sidestep oncoming pressure is extremely impressive. Even though Luck, Wilson, and even Bortles show excellent pocket presence I would say all three do not consistently remain as calm and composed under pressure as he does and all three definitely do not show nearly the same footwork in the pocket. I feel this must be mentioned.

Even though Bridgewater did not consistently play the same high level of competition as his peers that does not mean he did not face similar challenges. He had a great defense behind him this past year as well as two quality receivers (Damian Copeland and DeVante Parker). He did not have a great offensive line this year and in watching the film Teddy seemed to be under duress more often than either Manziel or Bortles. None of it was his own doing either. Ask any fan, scout or coach of any team; no matter how talented the skill players are if the QB does not have an offensive line that protects him consistently then it prevents the QB from playing to his full potential. Even with the offensive line issues Bridgewater still had a great year. What I admire with Bridgewater is how he played versus two quality defenses last year referring to Florida and Rutgers. According to FEI that 2012-13 Florida defense, when adjusted for opponent, was the best defense in college football since the stat was recorded in 2007 and Rutgers was 7th ranked that year beating out defenses like Oregon and Florida State. Bridgewater threw a combined 4 TDs and only 2 interceptions against them. His game against Florida was particularly notable when one takes into consideration how other top QBs did against that defense in that year, all passing stats (stats bolded indicate leader among aforementioned players):

Manziel: 0 TDs, 0 int. 200 yds 6.5 ypa 77.4% comp.
Bridgewater: 2 TDs, 1 int. 266 yds 8.3 ypa 62.5% comp.
E.J. Manuel: 1 TD, 3 int. 188 yds 5.2 ypa 52.8% comp.
Aaron Murray: 1 TDs, 3 int. 15o yds 6.3 ypa 50% comp.
Zach Mettenberger: 0 TDs, 1 int. 158 yds 6.3 ypa 44% comp.

I feel like Bridgewater's stats look the best overall against them, but some may disagree. He performed well against Rutgers as well, in a game that he nor the coaching staff was sure whether or not he'd be healthy enough to play in. This is against a top 10 defense, mind you, and at less than 100% he performed well against them. 2 TDs, 1 int. 8.3 ypa with a 71.8% completion rate, not bad. His performances against top competition; his ability to perform with an average at best offensive line and his overall poise under pressure combined with phenomenal accuracy in the short to intermediate areas of the field make me extremely confident in him at the next level. I could understand teams passing him up but those same teams may also come to regret their decision as well. An amazing throw with pressure coming up the middle, not many QBs would look this calm under this type of pressure:

4. Robert Griffin III - On to a player I know all too well, I'll refer to him as RG3 to save up some space. A phenomenal talent who possessed a quick release, a strong arm, and amazing accuracy in college; his deep ball (25+ yards) was something to behold. There was a website that did a comparison of the top QBs to come out in 2012 and compared their accuracy across different areas of the field. I cannot find the website, but I do remember RG3's accuracy percentage on throws 20+ yards was the best by far. Honestly when him and Luck were coming out, when I did not know how to scout QBs as well, I put Luck ahead of him just because he was bigger. I felt that RG3 was more accurate which he was to a certain extent but RG3 did not show the ability to consistently make throws that required timing and anticipation. I also disregarded the fact that as good as RG3 was his pocket presence was a notch below Luck's. Don't get me wrong RG3 is a tough player who has no fear in standing in a muddled pocket and taking a hard hit while delivering a throw; this has been no issue in the NFL either. RG3 just lacks a sense of the rush and is too mechanical with his movements to consistently maneuver within the pocket. The system he played in did not require him to make multiple reads or consistently ask him to make throws that require a bit more anticipation. As someone who has watched film of RG3 in college as well as most of his games with the Skins. RG3 struggles this past year came from his struggles with finer points of the game; guys like Wilson, Luck, and Bridgwater have. There were too many times he made the incorrect read vs. the blitz and too many instances when he locked on to a receiver which caused him to miss receivers that were otherwise open. He also struggled with getting the ball to his checkdown receivers and often tried to make plays that were not there. I like RG3 a lot and his struggles, strangely enough, make me even more confident in a player like Bridgewater at the next level. I do believe RG3 will have a stronger year next year because he will be about 2 years removed from his surgery. As I type this the team also signed Desean Jackson which should help him a bunch. While I do feel confident that RG3 should come back to be a better player his issues with the finer points of the game make me feel that Luck, Wilson, and possibly Bridgewater will always be a step ahead talent wise. This does not mean that they will always have the better year. One of RG3's best throws that highlights his arm strength.

5. Cam Newton- This man is the only reason I love college football and the draft so much. Before I knew about Cam Newton, I watched college football to pass the time but was never too interested until he burst onto the scene. I owe him much more than he'll ever know, but I will attempt to remain as objective as possible when it comes to my analysis on him. To start off Cam had a bunch of questions coming out when it came to his accuracy and his ability to adjust to an NFL offense. He had the arm strength, size, and compact over the shoulder delivery one looks for. He was a dynamic enough athlete which caused some to wonder if a position switch would be best for his future. Newton looked like a prototypical QB plus he had all the physical tools a team could ask for and then some.

The issues for him, at least as far as his on the field issues, deal with his accuracy and his ability to pick up an NFL playbook. Newton played in a relatively simplistic offense as far as what Auburn asked him to do. All the plays came from pictures on the sideline and he would often make one read maybe two before he would decide to scramble. He did not throw any routes that required timing or anticipation and it showed in his notoriously substandard combine workout. He honestly had a lot to work on and was a pretty big risk. Even now Newton still struggles making certain reads at times and many times he will hold the ball too long because it can take him awhile to read the defense. His negatives aside, there are three huge traits that transferred over from his time at Auburn that has led to his success even with his deficiencies.

Accuracy- Newton was not a consistently accurate passer at Auburn. He missed too many simple throws that he should have made, this issue continues at the NFL level as well. What made Newton special was the fact that he showed the accuracy and arm strength to make throws into tight windows. This is an ability that many spread QBs do not show enough of because of the offense they play in. Newton showed enough of it that even though he may never attain completion percentage records. He could and would make the throws that other QBs would not even attempt.

Scrambling ability- The second trait is his scrambling ability. This maybe me being biased but I'll attempt to explain. A QB's ability to scramble is just an added bonus but this trait combined with his other two traits makes this an essential part of his game to this point. Newton is a big man at 6'5" 245 lbs. While he has good straight line speed, the thing that makes him such a dynamic is his quickness. His ability to stop and start at a dime makes him even more effective of a runner than RG3 in many ways who has better straight line speed but nowhere near the quickness. The fact that his strength makes him hard to bring down allows him to get away with some of the deficiencies that currently hold him back from being viewed as an upper-echelon QB. His running threat also forces teams to not use man to man coverage as much which allows the defenses he faces to be a bit more simple. His ability to run pales in comparison to the next trait which has likely led to most of his early success.

Pocket Presence- Newton's pocket presence is likely the biggest reason he has had the success he's had. His ability to stand in the pocket with bodies around him and deliver accurate throws has been crucial to his success. Even though he does not possess great maneuverability within the pocket, unlike RG3 and Manziel he is much bigger. His size allows him to avoid arm tackles and buy a bit more extra time in the pocket to be able to deliver throws. If he was not as strong as he was and currently is, his lack of ability to really sense the rush would be a bigger issue because he will likely always maintain his size and strength, this will continue to be an advantage for him.

Two examples of Newton's best traits at work (now I'm biased). One showcases his accuracy in tight coverage and the second showcases his pocket presence.

6. Johnny Manziel - Manziel is a player that I want to see succeed personally just because he can be fun to watch and has a dynamic personality. His stardom in college football reminds me of Cam Newton who, as I said before, was the only reason I got into college football. This has been running a bit long so I'll be relatively brief from now on. First off, he shows amazing accuracy on all levels of the field and his deep ball is nearly as good as RG3's deep ball in college. He shows the ability to make accurate throws on the move and under duress. Before Manziel's pro-day I said he'll likely be a boom or bust prospect; after re-watching his film I do not seem him as any worse than an average starter. His ability to throw accurately short and deep even when he's on the move is too valuable. I have not even mentioned his game-breaking quickness which will allow him to be a threat with his legs. If he shores up his weaknesses he could reach the level of a Russell Wilson which is high praise coming from me.

My concern with Manziel is his pocket presence which is good enough but could be better. One thing that I did not like about Manziel was the fact that he played behind such a phenomenal offensive line and too many times made it look worse than it actually was. Ever find it funny how people would constantly say something along the lines of "If Michael Vick had an o-line he would not get hurt so much plus he'd be even better". Like Vick, Manziel will have issues in the NFL making his offensive line look worse than it actually is. Wilson has done this too, but not to the extent of Manziel, in which there are too many instances of him making a perfectly fine pocket collapse around him by his own doing. I also have concerns with his injury issues as well as his performances against LSU and Missouri, particulary LSU. If he does not tone down his aggressive style of play at the next level he will have serious injury issues. My biggest concern with Manziel is that he has played two games against LSU both this year and last year. Manziel had a combined 1 TD to 5 interceptions with an average of 5.2 ypa. This concerns me a bit; one could argue that he was not 100% healthy this year and the weather wasn't great (so much for big hands helping out with this). One could argue that he was only a freshmen last year as well. Whatever the excuse both games against LSU were by far his worst games of the year. I'm not sure how they play him, but from 3rd party sources I have read. They forced him to stay in the pocket and utilized disguised blitzes which flustered Manziel for both games. My concern is how this will affect him against smart defensive coordinators at the next level. I do believe Manziel could be very good at the next level. I only hope that he is able to improve enough on the mental aspects of the game to become all he can be. One of my favorite throws by Manziel in one of his worst games of the year, it shows what he's capable of even on his worst days.

7. Nick Foles
8. Blake Bortles
9. Geno Smith
10. E.J Manuel

Sorry for any grammatical errors or spelling mistakes. I didn't really look over it, but hope you find some of the information insightful!
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That was awesome! Thank you for spending time and giving us your analysis! Welcome to the board also!

sammy · Apr 2, 2014

andxx1 droppin knowledge

J.R. · Apr 3, 2014

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Deion Sanders says Johnny Manziel has "ghetto tendencies" <a href="http://t.co/TT4RyTKxFx">http://t.co/TT4RyTKxFx</a></p>— ProFootballTalk (@ProFootballTalk) <a href="https://twitter.com/ProFootballTalk/statuses/451726749332959232">April 3, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

josephnicks · Apr 3, 2014

like when jamie dukes said mallet is a "white, street guy"...

SacTown · Apr 3, 2014

Damn. Prime Time now has a grey beard?

endoftheworld · Apr 3, 2014

J.R. said: ↑

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Deion Sanders says Johnny Manziel has "ghetto tendencies" <a href="http://t.co/TT4RyTKxFx">http://t.co/TT4RyTKxFx</a></p>— ProFootballTalk (@ProFootballTalk) <a href="https://twitter.com/ProFootballTalk/statuses/451726749332959232">April 3, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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I guess when you win the Heisman when your 19 yo and you feel like your on top of the world (who wouldnt) you have ghetto tendencies

Primetime sounds like a PrimeIdiot

Sad because I normally respect what he has to say

waytookrzy079 · Apr 3, 2014

endoftheworld said: ↑

I guess when you win the Heisman when your 19 yo and you feel like your on top of the world (who wouldnt) you have ghetto tendencies

Primetime sounds like a PrimeIdiot

Sad because I normally respect what he has to say
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Seems like everyone sounds like an idiot or you lose respect or dont respect them if they have anything remotely positive to say about Johnny Manziel. (granted, i didnt see what Primtetime said about Manziel...just what i've witnessed in these threads). I dont seem to understand why you have so much hate towards the guy, but to each their own.

I guess endoftheworld is to johnny manziel as tinman is to tracy mcgrady.

endoftheworld · Apr 3, 2014

waytookrzy079 said: ↑

Seems like everyone sounds like an idiot or you lose respect or dont respect them if they have anything remotely positive to say about Johnny Manziel. (granted, i didnt see what Primtetime said about Manziel...just what i've witnessed in these threads). I dont seem to understand why you have so much hate towards the guy, but to each their own.

I guess endoftheworld is to johnny manziel as tinman is to tracy mcgrady.
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Clearly you didn't read the article.

But thats fine, typical to open your mouth before rubbing those brain cells together.

I like Manziel, he is just overrated on these boards

Solid second rounder, nothing more

Raven · Apr 3, 2014

J.R. said: ↑

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Deion Sanders says Johnny Manziel has "ghetto tendencies" <a href="http://t.co/TT4RyTKxFx">http://t.co/TT4RyTKxFx</a></p>— ProFootballTalk (@ProFootballTalk) <a href="https://twitter.com/ProFootballTalk/statuses/451726749332959232">April 3, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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It seems like every day that blog is finding something new to get offended over. The reason, obviously, page hits.

Ziggy · Apr 3, 2014

waytookrzy079 said: ↑

Seems like everyone sounds like an idiot or you lose respect or dont respect them if they have anything remotely positive to say about Johnny Manziel.
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Anyone that uses the phrase, "ghetto tendencies" sounds like an idiot.

endoftheworld · Apr 3, 2014

Ziggy said: ↑

Anyone that uses the phrase, "ghetto tendencies" sounds like an idiot.
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Thank you, that was the only thing I was addressing

waytookrzy079 · Apr 3, 2014

Ziggy said: ↑

Anyone that uses the phrase, "ghetto tendencies" sounds like an idiot.
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True.. like i said, i didnt read the article, and i dont really care to, but my assumption was that he may have said positive things about him, other than his "ghetto tendencies" remark.

endoftheworld said: ↑

Thank you, that was the only thing I was addressing
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Again, I didnt read the article, so i didnt know that's what you were referring to. My bad... But I didnt need to read the article to conclude how you feel about Johnny Manziel and his supporters. Sure, he may be overhyped and overrated, but no way to find out what he's got until he's out on an NFL football field.

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