And the thing I took issue with is him saying this was some modern breakthrough started by Tom Thibodeau and that it's not really man-to-man. None of that is true. It is fundamental basketball. It was started a long time ago. Not by Tom Thibodeau. All levels of basketball play man-to-man this way, and it's still called man-to-man.
I like threads like these. Even if you're involved with basketball and some of the topic is collectively understood, the subjective element is interesting. You can look at "tagging" from a variety of aspects, but I admired JVG's approach to defense for its simplicity, accountability, and as we all can recall, effectiveness. I'm not sure I agree with the OP that man-to-man isn't used anymore. I think it has been modified, but its roots are still there, like they've always been. There's always "help" involved on D, but anyway, one method of defense that I've always respected was used by our very own JVG. Other coaches may use it, less obviously, but JVG has always been vocal about it, in one way or another. JVG simply referred to it as "floor" and Thibs models it in Chi-Town as consistently pointing to the ground. JVG was more concerned with limiting guard penetration by making players focus on NOT falling for any sort of up-fake. None. Even in his broadcasts today, he mentions that he'd "live with guys shooting contested jumpers," even if they went in. He'd let a guy like Kobe/Melo keep shooting jumpers from around the elbow range to avoid having penetration break down the defense. Once one guy falls for a fake of any kind and the lane opens up, the defense breaks down, the ball is able to "pop" (yuck, McHale reference ) and the offense gets a much, much better shot opportunity. Essentially, you settle for players taking contested jumpers with a hand in their face (Battier), but your defense has the flexibility of laying off a little for the sake of protecting the paint and limiting ball movement. You TRAP the offense into thinking that shots are open because no one is jumping for a fake. The defense covers all corners, forces the offense to work harder around the perimeter, and in its simple beauty, guys become horribly ineffective VOLUME SHOOTERS. In terms of man-to-man defense, you could have a guy like David Wesley being a decent defender because he used his body and speed to make a guy work, simply by just NOT falling for a fake. The goal isn't to stop the shot. The goal is to stop penetration and allow an opponent to get a mediocre look with a contested hand in the face. The next time down, that same player thought his previous shot was close (though it was from the perimeter), so he takes it again, because the lane is clogged and he can't penetrate. This continues. Some of the shots will go in, and if a guy is hot, this simple RnR may backfire. But, it FORCES guys to become volume shooters, and we all know, there are very few of those that are statistically effective. Example: Stay on the "floor" against JR Smith, give him some space to operate, follow him enough to be close to put a hand in his face (battier-esque) and he will think he's open and shoot WAY more than he should, because he thinks he's SO open. 7 times out of 10 he'll shoot around 30%. Just my 2 cents...
Good post. I watch NBA games and it's little things like that that could make a big difference. If teams would just do the little things - especially on defense - they could become so much better as a team. I think that is why the Spurs are always good. They do the little things.
Yeah, the WTF reaction from his last post seemed much. Figured it wasn't their first convo... lol. _____ Nice breakdown by Codman.
lol.. what was weird about his WTF reaction was that he said something like "just accept the fact that I've been to NBA practices".. or something like that. The thing is, we've never had a discussion about him being at an NBA practice. I don't even know where that came from. He was saying "just accept the fact" like I've been denying it for a long time. This was the first time I ever heard him say that. Weird..
A great post. I learned a lot. You are talking about Coach Thib's 2.9 defense here. Great observation. Man to man is not played anymore. It is on ball defense subject to fast rotations. Shoot the screen or switch? Depends on the situation. Much more complex that what most of us envision as man to man.
You asked where I got the information in my post. I did not have a handy internet reference. Information like this is not widely available. And no, I will never pretend to be an "inside source".
Would you do me a favor? You have a high opinion of your NBA knowledge. Would you explain to the board P&R defense? In a simple and concise manner like I did with tagging. The average CF member would benefit much from your knowledge. And you would save me the effort.
More garbage from jtr that he tries to cloak in the form of "insightful analysis." I'm glad most of you see through this bs.
Though we never called it tagging, I'm pretty sure I've been taught this concept from YMCA Youth leagues on up. The only thing I learned later on was to not jump to contest a jumper, but that's due as much to my lack of quickness as anything (and my dad yelling "DON'T FOUL THE JUMP SHOOTER!!").
LOL. I have been there as a dad. This was a basic post. However tagging in the NBA is much more complex than basketball at any other level. One area where you see its effect is when Bev or Lin (their man being screened on the outside) penetrate to the baseline and then dribble across the court. Any opening at the basket is sealed by the opponents almost perfect tag distance. Of course that does not stop Durant or LBJ from scoring, but with most others the defense seals the basket off. Don't forget that both Lin and Bev, if given a foot to much distance, will jam the ball home. You just do not see that tight of defense anywhere but the NBA or perhaps the best teams in Euro League. Tagging is further complicated by the 2.9 defense on the weak side. The tag distance must be perfect. A foot to far and the offense can swing the ball and get a clean look at the basket. This is the one area of defense that D-Mo still struggles with. The tag concept is the reason no one calls it man to man defense anymore. It is termed on ball (OB) defense. This has been brought about by the complex multiple screens run today in the NBA. I feel sure we will see multiple examples tonight of Jones or D-Mo trailing Love through screens by 6 or more feet. If Houston's defense has not shifted appropriately to cover Love until D-Mo or Jones can recover it will be a long night. Tag distance is incredibly important in P&R defense. Coach Nick did a great video on side P&R defense, but I have not seem a complete discussion about center P&R defense. It certainly is much more complex than side P&R defense. I will write a post covering it, unless someone else chooses to step up. The great defensive NBA teams have nearly perfect tag distances in the paint and at the three point line. Shots are contested heavily there and the Bulls will surrender the mid-ranged shot. That is the main reason why Chicago has one of the best NBA defenses year in and year out. Coach Thib is a great defensive NBA coach.
