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Ukraine Protests

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Northside Storm, Feb 20, 2014.

  1. glynch

    glynch Member

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    There appear no good choices to imperialists because the USA cannot control the whole world.

    ***** happens around the world.

    Pretending that Bush, Clinton, Romney, Obama etc could is just stupid.
     
  2. SacTown

    SacTown Member

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    Putin doesn't want another soviet union. He wants a Eurasian Union similar to the European Union but if he looses all these other countries to Nato he'll be isolated and his Eurasion Union dream will die.
     
  3. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Having spent some time in Russia..... yes I do.

    Russian has a history of authoritarian rulers telling them what to do and what yo believe, going back to Ivan the Terrible and through the Soviet Union.

    The Yeltsin regime was a disaster, the excitement of the fall of Communism has long passed, many people in Russian yearn for the old days.

    Putin has consolidated power to an extreme. He controls the media and like Hitler is a master at passing Russian failure on to other groups, be it Chechens, homosexuals, oligarchs or the USA.
     
  4. Nook

    Nook Member

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    I am well aware of that, I refer to "The Wall" because it was the event that trigged the inevitable.

    The economic changes in Russia started long before Gorbachev, it first appeared shortly AFTER the Soviet Union was formed. Historically they have allowed low level capitalism, with black markets out in the open. Then at a later date, they made additional changes when it was clear Lennin's model was outdated.

    Yes, Yeltsin essentially let a new group of "Boyers" consolidate resources and become extremely wealthy. As time went on, the "Boyers" actually became more powerful than Yeltsin. This group of corrupt and wealthy men did everything to keep Putin from consolidating power. Yeltsin foolishly trusted Putin, and he paid the price... as did the "Boyers", most of which are dead, in prison or in exhile. They now are viewed as traitors.

    Now, a select group of men are operating as "Boyers" but are closely controlled by Putin and clearly subserviant to him.


    It isn't quite that simple.

    No, I don't think that Putin intends to go back 100% to the old Soviet ways. However, he clearly wants to re-unify all the old Soviet States into a single Russian state. He also knows his nation will be poor without those prior states.

    Putin uses the Orthodox Christian Church for his own benefit. He has them under his thumb. Also, Stalin at different times allowed the Churches to open up and function. The issue for Stalin and Lennin was that the Church was competition.

    It is hard to say what exactly Putin wants. He is a classic trained ex Soviet. He HATED the actions of Yeltsin and Gorbachev and believed they were largely responsible for shame of the Russian people. Putin is a very difficult politican to read.... he fooled Yeltsin, he fooled the oligarchs, he at one point claimed he wanted to include Russian in the West..... then one power is consolidated, his actions change. So no one really knows for sure.


    The Soviet Union wasn't really communist either. If you want to call it something other, then so be it.... not an important point to me. He wants a strong, centralized state that has the ultimate say over every aspect of the common man's life.
     
  5. outlaw96

    outlaw96 Member

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  6. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Excellent post.

    There is no cookie cutter situation.

    Every culture is unique and what they want or how they perceive their leaders are strongly influenced by what they have historically endured.

    After the fall of the Soviet Union there was extreme crime, money was concentrated in a handful of people while the common citizen was hungry and exposed to complete chaos. The youth were often addicted to drugs, children lived in the street and guns and violence were common. Atleast with Putin there is a sense of accountability and pride.
     
  7. HamJam

    HamJam Member

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    Saying Putin wants to re-create the Soviet Union is like saying Stalin wanted to recreate the Russian Imperial Empire -- it is true in the sense that they both wanted a nationalistic, centralized Russian state with power over their neighboring regions -- words mean things, and Putin certainly won't be flying the Sickle and Hammer anytime soon, just as Stalin would never have donned the Romanov crown and asked for a blessing from the Patriarch.
     
  8. Nook

    Nook Member

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    You don't get it.... I don't think that he will be flying the Sickle and Hammer ....
     
  9. HamJam

    HamJam Member

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    What do I not get exactly? It sounds like we are saying similar things. Someone said at some point in the thread that he is trying to recreate the Soviet Union. I disagree with that. I disagree with calling all authoritative regimes Communist. I don't disagree that he is a nationalistic Russian leader trying to expand Russian hegomony back over regions that Moscow/St. Petersburg controlled during the Soviet era or the Tsarist era.

    So, what do I not get?
     
  10. Nook

    Nook Member

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    I thought you were saying I believed he wanted a new SU.
     
  11. Kojirou

    Kojirou Member

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    I'm not sure what "true in technicality" means, but the fact is that the North Koreans for better or for worse, do sincerely love their Dear Leader and he is not just kept in power by the men with guns loyal to him. If that can be true for a lunatic regime like North Korea, why can't it be true for Russia?
     
  12. M.G.

    M.G. Member

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    What's crazy is that while Russians overwhelmingly support Putin, a significant portion of the population exhibits a lack of mistrust in the government (or at least did when my textbook was published). This isn't a statistical anomaly or even a doctored poll. It's Russia's culture and history. After years of hardship, they have been conditioned to fully place their trust in their leaders, to believe that they will have their peoples' best interests at heart.

    Here's a tidbit from my Gov textbook that explains it pretty well.

    The notion of civil society starts with the acceptance of two areas of life: a public one that is defined by the government, and a private one, in which people are free to make their own individual choices. In a country with a strong civil society, people follow rules, operate with a degree of trust toward others, and generally have respectful dealings with others even if the government is not watching. Even though these ideals may not always be met, citizens are aware of both the rule of law in the public realm and their own privacy that exists outside it. Democracy and capitalism both depend on the civil society for their successful operation.

    Russians do not necessarily share the assumptions that civil society rests on: the inherent value of life, liberty, and property. Instead, they have been much more influenced by traditions of statism; have a strong government or die. Their history began with this truth; survival amidst the invasions across the Russian plains and the rebellions of the many ethnicities depends on a strong, protective government. In the twentieth century, Russia became a superpower in the same way; through a strong, centralized government.
     
  13. Deji McGever

    Deji McGever יליד טקסני

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    I think this would explain a lot.

    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/iw6cDYEd8Dw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
     
  14. SacTown

    SacTown Member

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    More than 80% of Russians Feel Patriotic

    MOSCOW, March 19 (RIA Novosti) – Over 80 percent of Russians identify themselves as patriots, according to survey results published Monday by a state-backed pollster.

    The proportion was higher in large cities such as Moscow and St. Petersburg (84 percent) and among the highly-educated (84 percent), as compared to medium-sized cities (76 percent) and the less educated (67 percent).

    Overall, the All-Russian Public Opinion Research Center reported that 81 percent of respondents reported feeling patriotic for Russia.

    The survey was conducted March 8 to 9 among 1,600 people across Russia. The margin of error was 3.4 percent.

    http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140319/188572637/More-than-80-of-Russians-Feel-Patriotic.html
     
  15. REEKO_HTOWN

    REEKO_HTOWN I'm Rich Biiiiaaatch!

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    I'll annex the **** out of the new Prosecutor

    [​IMG]
     
  16. SacTown

    SacTown Member

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    Land Grab.

    National Geographic to Update World Map With Russian Crimea

    MOSCOW, March 19 (RIA Novosti) – Experts at the Washington-based National Geographic Society have announced plans to redraw the world map to show Crimea as part of Russia after the Ukrainian breakaway region’s reunification with Moscow is finalized.

    The US magazine’s editorial, legal and cartographic leadership met Tuesday to discuss how to map Crimea’s political status, shortly after Russian President Vladimir Putin and Crimea’s leaders signed a treaty on Russia absorbing the Black Sea peninsula.

    The historic reunification treaty is expected to be approved by Russia's constitutional court and then ratified by parliament later this week.
    Juan Jose Valdes, the organization’s geographer, told US News & World Report that National Geographic maps “the world as it is, not as people would like it to be.”

    “As you can only surmise, sometimes our maps are not received in a positive light by some individuals who want to see the world in a different light,” Valdes said.

    National Geographic cartographers have agreed to temporarily indicate Crimea on maps as Ukrainian territory with a shading to indicate a special status, similar to how the contested territories of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank are shown.

    But following the ratification of the reunification treaty by the Russian parliament the organization plans to include the region as part of Russia, Valdes said.

    Crimea, previously an autonomous republic within Ukraine, refused to recognize the legitimacy of the government in Kiev that came to power amid often violent protests last month and sought reunification with Russia instead. The move has sparked the most serious geopolitical showdown between Russia and the West since the end of the Cold War.

    http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140319/18...-to-Update-World-Map-With-Russian-Crimea.html
     
  17. pirc1

    pirc1 Member

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    Who is this hottie? Can we get her to take a picture with Jlin?
     
  18. Dubious

    Dubious Member

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    I think she is the new Attorney General of Crimea
     
  19. pirc1

    pirc1 Member

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    I would prosecute with her lol.
     
  20. solid

    solid Member

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    I am much more fearful of my own government than I am the Russians.
     

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