China unlike US, prefer peace over war. They don't go to war with anyone unless people come into their territory.
In the minds of the Russian people, they are taking over Ukraine and the surrounding territories to protect the Russians living there and to keep the west out of there. In the minds of the Russian people it isn't a land grab. It's protection. They think the west wants to continue shrinking mother Russia. They fear Ukraine will be filled with westerners unless they own it.
yeah and as much as hitler was a nutcase he had a convincing argument. Go watch his speeches and see how he plays on sentiments and patriotism. Hitler was pretty good at the 'us against them' move in a day when propaganda was much easier to implement too. I don't doubt putins support but I just dont see the people coming together to fight a nasty war (especially in days of nuclear weapons) on account of an unclear message. Putin seems to have no message or real stance. Not sure how in the long term that could get a whole country to fight WW3. I would like to think russian people dont have the energy for it. Also remember hitler used weaponizing as way to get out of depression and put people to work. Hitler also created an enemy in the communist jew and got his people to have someone to fight. It was purposeful sort of story to the germans. Putin is putting out what?
Ummm...there are other things besides democracy and communism. There is fascism (which I think Putin is pretty close to), Monarchy, etc. Dude, I agree with most of what you have said in this thread, but Russia is not Communist. And you certainly can't say China will support them because they are both Communist -- because they aren't. China may support them, but not for that reason.
And in Russia it's the same "us against them". And them is the west. The west who orchestrated the uprising in Ukraine to begin with, right? The West. The Gays. On the Russian national news they said Obama was coming into Ukraine to put in Gay Schools for the children.
Then for what other reason would China support them? You may be right, but I can't think of any other reason.
I thought russians had fully embraced the west? Arent they the ones wearing gucci and fendi and always dropping the name brands? Isnt the new russia all about embracing materialism and pop culture?
I don't know either. I've never studied it explicitly -- I could guess, but I really am not sure. I just know that Russia has not been Communist for a long time. There was an attempted coup against Gorbachev, Yeltsin took over, privatization of the nationally owned industries occurred, and Russia has not been a communist state in practice or name since then. They changed their flag, the names of their cities, leaders, political structures, a new constitution was created, who controlled the economy changed. It was a big deal. I'm definitely not saying they are a Democracy. They are not any more free economically or politically than they were under most of their Communist leaders. But you can't just say they are Communist and explain things based on that when it is not true.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>It is incredible how quickly the free world forgets it has real enemies who can't be appeased with long phone calls & diplomatic embraces.</p>— Garry Kasparov (@Kasparov63) <a href="https://twitter.com/Kasparov63/statuses/446036524778655744">March 18, 2014</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
There are plenty of reasons for tacit support, China may want to have Russia support in other matters like Tibet and Taiwan. China want to have the natural resources in Russia. China also feels that the US is trying to blockade it in Asia, so it want to counter that be getting support from Russia.
wouldnt china prefer all the consumer goods sales it gets from usa? Wouldnt that be shooting itself in foot to screw usa business relations? seems like more to lose for china if they stand with russia than with usa? Unless china and russia want to team up and start invading world just not sure what china gets out of supporting/siding with russia. I could see china being on sideline more than anything.
That is why I don't believe China would openly support Russia, check the last UN vote. But I am pretty sure there would be some under the table support, or at least China would not support Sanctions.
China definitely supports Russian interests and vice versa -- especially when it comes to the UN and security council votes. But, I don't think China would want war for the reason you mentioned (losing access to US markets/consumers). That would indeed be shooting themselves in the foot. However, they also don't want US hegemony. That can stifle China's influence in the globe and thus their economic growth. So, by supporting Russia in geo-politics, (as well as other countries at odds with the US) they can promote their relative power of influence throughout the world (relative to the power of US influence). Kind of how we would root for the Mavs over the Clippers right now during the playoff race --we don't want either to win, but, if one has to, we want the one over us to lose so that we can ascend a peg. But when push comes to shove, unless China feels their borders would be immanently threatened, they would not back Russia in a war.
right but its not like we are trying to make ukraine into 51st state here right? or are we? Aren't we playing the card of want 'what is best for people of crimea or ukraine' etc? I mean in many ways what do we have to gain by trying to meddle in crimea or ukraine? I'm not ready to die just yet because I want a gay school in kiev. Not sure about you. In some ways unless we are trying to take over world ourselves we need to look at bigger picture here and avoid some stupid ww3 over territory that was russia before anyway. Let these guys work it out. Im not saying we relent or show weakness but we need to chill on ww3 too. I am not ready for mushroom clouds and rations when we are talking something like ukraine..especially when damn place was ussr in the 80s anyway. I prefer to pick my ww3 battles on something meaningful and aint trying to go out like that. I think the bigger issue is putin, and we need to iso the guy. I like the idea of some polonium 210
Oh, I'm not advocating war with Russia or saying the US has some sort of designs to annex Ukraine or something. I am just saying that, if Ukraine goes more into the Western sphere of influence, that it means that the US will have more influence there and thus more influence overall in the world -- and if China can muck up or make the US's ability to get more powerful in that regard without having to do much (such as abstaining to vote in the UN security council) then they have an interest in doing so. I like the article that Sac posted earlier about Poland, Lithuania and Ukraine working together militarily to stop Russian aggression and to get Ukraine thus more in the NATO/Western/US sphere of influence. Sanctions and encouraging/ supporting this kind of behavior by countries in the region is the thing to do. Not saber rattling.
in name of USA hegemony I propose: let crimea become independent and let putin be in bed with their gov't. who cares because we are going induct ukraine and lithuania into EU and become a strong ally in their backyard. We are effectively annexing more than them to west. They get a sorry as port in black sea and we get ukraine and lithuania as part of our western hegemony. Putin can go make some more billions with his cronies off the port and hopefully fu**ck off to some island eventually. Scoreboard:WEST
