You could argue that, if the clippers didn't trade their pick to Cleveland and drafted kyrie Irving, they would not have made that trade for cp3. Especially if they also had drafted Paul George instead of aminu. Instead, they would be sitting with a starting five of Irving, Eric Gordon, Paul George, Blake griffin, and deandre Jordan. But there are a lot of what ifs for every team. For example, what if golden state didn't reject okc offer of harden for Klay Thompson before they traded harden to rockets. The warriors would be looking at a backcourt with curry and harden. And with increased playing time, maybe Jeremy Lin would have developed into an all star.
The only people who think Paul is overrated are haters. I hate his flopping, but can't deny his game. He does it all... shoot, pass, penetrate, defend, protect the ball, and run the offense. There's no denying his greatness. He's already a Top 10 PG All-Time and could reach Top 3.
Lol no he doesn't. He actually has a excellent first step with some good handles. That's what gets him into the lane and then guys tend to actually foul him because unlike a player like Paul, he attacks the rim A LOT and thus is fouled a lot. It's really no different than Wade in his prime except Wade was super athletic and could finish with a dunk while Harden has more craftier finishes.
I have to say this in jest and a truthful manner, but fans on here really need to start watching these games...especially when you have some posters on here comparing Kyle Lowry to Chris Paul. I shudder and say either haterism is rampant or homerism is infectious. Paul is head and shoulders better than Lowry ... most point guards in the league now. He's a rarity, even in NBA history, again ...it's easy for posters to yell, "He's not as good as Magic...Magic won rings and is the prototypical point guard." "He's not Oscar Robertson." "He can't run offense, like Nash or Kidd (I laugh at that one a little)." I keep saying the thing that propels, CP3 ahead of most guards and wing players: the totality of his game. He's a jack-of-all-trades essentially, while unlike most jacks ... he's actually elite at some of those trades, especially for his position. For as great as Magic and Oscar was with their physical specimen body types, both weren't great or even good defenders and definitely not great shooters. I'll add Kidd in on the shooting side. As for point guards, like Nash, Stockton, or Mark Jackson...the first two were legendary shooters, but known for elite scoring ability ... outside Stockton, you've got two more not so great defensive players. Some critics will argue, "Well point guards aren't needed for defense...it's not an important quality ... in most situations I'd say maybe, but what about when you play teams with great wing players. Moreover, what if your point guard is so terrible defensively second stringers can score at-will against him...that's not a neutral." The only thing Paul lacks that keeps him from becoming a top 3-5 point guard, now is titles. That's more of team accomplishment and not necessarily in one player's hands.
And that's one of the reasons why CP3 should at least be in the discussion for top 3-5, all time. He's been a premier player at the position for almost decade, while it's been a very competitive spot ... in a modern and historical sense.
Harden does have a good first step and good balance on the eurostep like Wade and Manu, but I tend to think his first goal is to draw the foul rather than make the shot so he seems to look for bodies to run into and flop to draw the foul. I mean, it's effective, but just wanted to point out that his strategy is built around the flop. Wade and Manu always went for the shot first and, if they got fouled, that was gravy. CP3 is a flopper mostly when he carries the ball as a means to try and get opponent players into foul trouble. His main move is to run in front of people and then stop forcing defenders to run into him and he can flop.
In the last 3 games, CP3 had 39 assists and 2 turnovers. On the season, he has 465 assists and 99 turnovers. His assist to turnover ratio in his career is on the all time great category. That coupled with the fact that he leads the league in steals almost every year, he is extremely valuable to helping his team win games by just producing more possessions on turnover plus/minus. This is actually why I think the Rockets don't match up well vs the Clippers because the Rockets are at the top in turnovers and it usually gets masked if their opponent turns the ball over too. With the Clippers, they create even more turnovers than normal with guys like CP3, Collison, and Barnes and don't turn the ball back over creating extra possessions. In the last game they played, the Clippers shot the ball horribly but were still able to win because they dominated the turnover plus/minus. And for those that think the PG position is not important, you clearly have never played organized basketball. It is the point guards responsibility to set up the play, make sure everyone is in the right place, watch the shot clock (not that there is a shot clock in high school when I played), and ultimately call the plays. To say the point guard is not an important position is like saying the quarterback is not that important to a football team. I think the reason there are a lot of good point guards today (and I consider Harden to be a combo guard that essentially plays point for the Rockets) is because of the change of rules in the last 10 years. By changing the illegal defense rules in the past and allowing zone, the NBA has pretty much taken away the traditional center position and relegated that to be a role that just gets boards and blocks some shots. It today's game, successful teams need a quick point guard who can also knock down shots and a dynamic power forward who has some size, but is also quick enough to navigate around the zone defense or creative double-teams. It's not a coincidence that the majority of teams today have their best two players as point guard/power forward combos. It's just how the game has evolved and I'm sure there will be more evolution as Adam Silver makes changes to rules in the future. The traditional shooting guard in most plays run around multiple screens for the point guard to find for open shots. I don't hardly ever see Harden run around screens or even move when he doesn't have the ball. So by that rule, I consider Harden a combo guard, but really, he's a point guard that shoots the ball a lot.
Harden is one of the top players in the league in terms of converting And-1's. Lead the league in it last year, if I remember correctly. To say he "doesn't go for the shot" is just silly and shows you don't watch his games often.
I don't think I said he doesn't go for the shot, I just said he seeks out bodies to run into and flop and, if the shot goes in, even better. I just don't think Wade or Manu look for flops first...then look to score first.
I think Chris Paul is a great player, undoubtedly one of the best in the league. However, I don't understand on what basis you can argue that he is one of the top 3-5 players ever, or that he is one of the best 2 point guards ever. I understand that stats can be flawed, that awards can be arbitrary, and that championships depend on the entire team. However, in the end, you would have to consider those factors in some combination to determine who is the best player, right? I don't think there is a legitimate argument for Chris Paul as one of the top 5 players ever, or even as one of the top 2 PGs ever based on any of those factors. Best stats? No. Championships? No. Most awards? No. So, then on what basis can you really rate him so highly? The eye test? So were David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Patrick Ewing, and Shaquille O'Neal in the 90s. They can't all be considered top 5 players of all time. Until Paul does something that truly, objectively raises his credentials above other top 10 players, I don't think there is a case to be made yet.
Manu will go down as a legendary flopper. Wade will always be remembered for his first championship where he did exactly what Harden does, just ask Mavs fans about that...
I cannot respect any player that FAKES fouls as frequently as Chris Paul does... If a player wants to drive the lane and embellish minor contact to try and draw the foul - so be it.... but if a player wants to jerk his head back and fall to the ground when he was never even touched - screw him, he obviously has no respect for the game....
I'd say they fell more into the 'embellish' category.... And while I don't condone 'faking a foul' at all... there is a subtle difference between trying to get a 'make up call' for one that the official missed and routinely falling down like a fool chasing a call... jus my opinion...
Oh come on Battier and Scola were definitely floppers. CP3 the best pg in the game but I'm with you I don't like his actions on the court at times because he is very sneaky and therefore the media has given him the nice guy image. Still don't see how he got that image after the cheap shot to Julius Hodge in college.
First of all (Barkley voice), I agree with your entire post except the bolded. Completely disagree with the bolded and have had this conversation before over the years. Guys who I believe know b-ball agree with you.. but on the same note, they say zone hurts perimeter players as well. What your thoughts on perimeter players vs zone when comparing today vs past? I think Jordan created today's league. And it started before zone or hand checking was changed. Players wanted to be like Mike, but weren't good enough. League scoring dropped (along with # of great bigs) and %s fell, so Stern made it easier to penetrate and move around on the perimeter. Back to the basket isn't glamorous, but it's the most effective offense regardless of rules. The league just has no great post players. Dwight's offense (not even including FTs) isn't not great because of rules, it's not great because it's not great. A guy like Ewing might be the best player in the league today. Dude posted 26/12 against way better players. Another poster earlier mentioned charging/flopping as hurting bigs' offense (that's what I thought he meant), but wouldn't that hurt the perimeter more? They are more out of control due to driving and dribbling than a big posting.
