When he is proven wrong he either ignores it, changes the argument or adds caveats. When you think you have given enough evidence he will return a week later with meaningless "evidence" and the argument will start with a different person all over again.
Remarkable. I post public statements by NBA players, respected analysts, coaches, and even the man Morey himself. I am refuted by amateur video clips, fan opinion, and the dreaded eye test. How much closer does Morey have to come to saying that the Rockets offense, except out of time outs and inbound plays, does not run set plays??? Oh, wait, even if he did it would not change the opinion of several members of CF. That statement by Morey was a direct indictment of the philosophy of in game play calling. Do you think Morey would let that inefficiency just slide???
Gee, I don't know... let's roll the tape: Here is the Golden State Warriors running an elevator play out of Horns: <iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/U0iRYOJn-O8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> Here is the Rockets running the exact same play: <iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/EWtNO0Q2Xas" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
And gee whiz, do you not think that that play was run a few times in practice and the players naturally integrated it into the flow of the offense? Or was McHale sitting on the sidelines and screaming "Elevator. Elevator."? NBA players, if left to their own devices will repeat practiced patterns in game as the situation calls for it. R&R is fundamentally the ability to read the defense and react appropriately. Nothing more, nothing less. And the R&R is not chaos, it is leaving game situations in the player's hands. If run well, all of the teams players are on the same page, and will read and react pretty much identically.
LOLLLLLLLLLLLLL. So you admit that the Rockets run plays. And no, you cannot integrate that play "into the flow of the offense". All of the players have to be on the same page. They have to be standing at the right positions on the floor before the play even starts. Then, the PF, for example, has to know that he's supposed to wait for the guard to run through before he sets a screen. He knows not to look to catch a pass. He knows that he's not supposed to go set a screen for the SF. He knows exactly what he's supposed to be doing on the play. And that's to wait until the guard runs past him and then close the gap. That isn't something that "just happens" within the flow of the offense. Every player on the team has to know the play call. If you think that can just happen organically, then it is obvious you have never played basketball at any competitive level and you have no reason to be telling me or others that we don't know what we're talking about.
LOL. The Rockets never call plays. It is called R&R for a reason. What you term plays may develop naturally, based on the on court situation. And the teams understanding of how best to react. I did propose to you several times that our understanding of the game was not very different. You rejected that. What you call plays I view as just the natural outcome of the R&R. Patterns. Ingrained into players through coaching and practice. Your viewpoint of this issue is from a player's standpoint. Mine is from a deeper and more abstract level, based on the major tenants of the R&R philosophy. Both are certainly valid. Your viewpoint is probably held by McHale, mine by Morey. But this line of reasoning probably seems obtuse to you. My bad.
You don't seem to be aware that teams run different offenses and sets at different times. They don't run the same thing 100% of the time. So yes, while the Rockets may run their read and react motion offense most of the time, it isn't the only thing they run. I'm trying to get you to understand that plays like the ones I showed you do not happen organically because there is no telling what each player is supposed to do. Horns may have several different plays run out of it. How would the players know which play is being run? Different players have to set screens, run to the right spot, catch a pass, etc. all at the SAME TIME. If the players got into a specific set, then how would they know what to do? My level of understanding is from a player/coach/basketball standpoint. Your level of understanding comes from the land of bull****.
OK. I have proposed several times that we play nice. Extended an olive branch so to speak. No more. To run a play implies prior intent. Are you proposing that within the 24 second shot clock that players can communicate their intent to the rest of the team two, three, four or more times within that time constraint? How do players communicate said intent? You seem to propose they "call" plays. Isn't that just the notion Morey attempted to debunk with his statement: Isn't Morey just saying that offensive plays are derailed by modern NBA defenses? Play calling is absolutely dead in the water inefficient? That players have to take what the defense gives to them and then attempt to exploit it? Isn't Morey saying that players need to be able to READ the defense and REACT in a variety of ways, dependent on the situation? Your understanding of the NBA is shallow, to put it mildly. It seems to be caught up in an 80's mindset. Coach Thib and others blew that philosophy out of the water. Defenses are every bit as astute as offenses these days. As soon as today's defenses see a pattern (play) develop they will immediately blow it out of the water. Good NBA teams understand that their initial attempt will in all probability not work (except of course against d-league franchises like Philly). A team can run plays to their hearts content. Chicago will destroy them, leaving the offense with a bad mid-ranged jumper. And it goes further than that. The tag-tag , 2.9, and other defensive strategies put defensive players in the perfect position to contest offensive plays. Why do you think that the Rockets so emphasize spacing? Get every defender as far away from Harden as possible. Or for that matter Howard in the post. Have you actually taken a critical look at the offensive player alignments in those offensive sets?
Two, three, four or more times? What are you even talking about? You call a play once. You aren't even making sense. In order for a team to exploit a defense, they have to do something first. The offense has to make a move. There are different ways to make a move. Running a play is one of those ways. Clearly, defenses cannot stop a play every time considering teams like the Warriors have a bunch of plays to get their 3 point shooters open. The Warriors were the first team to really use that elevator play. jtr, you truly, honestly, are misguided. You sit at home and read about basketball and then completely misinterpret what you are reading because you have never played basketball and so you don't truly understand what you are reading. It's why something as simple as knowing that it is impossible for some of the plays the Rockets run to just happen within the flow of the offense is foreign to you. If you played basketball, you'd understand why what you are saying is laughably stupid.
I would bet you $10K that you have never played or coached against anything approaching today's NBA defenses. Have you even played or coached against defenses that funnel the ball handler to the baseline as opposed to the middle help? That actually was incorporated into NBA defenses over a decade ago. Does your understanding of basketball extend beyond your limited experience playing the game at levels an order of magnitude less complex and intricate than the NBA? I would venture that it does not. There are very good reasons that Morey defines the offensive strategy that McHale implements. You are perhaps a very, very small example of why.
This debate has grown sooo tiresome. You are deliberately misinterpreting my statements. With the Morey statement you lost. You obviously do not understand the complexities of today's NBA. Would you please illuminate us with your vast knowledge of tag-tag NBA defensive schemes? Would you be so kind as to demonstrate your understanding of the reason that the Rockets flood the weak side when Howard has the ball in the post? That one is dead stupid simple.
Funneling the ball to the baseline? That is one of the most basic aspects of defense... like making a guy go left. It is some of the most fundamental basketball there is. Like I said, if you played basketball, you would know how ridiculously fundamental that is. I played in college, high school, and AAU. In high school our team won the Texas 5A state championship. In highs school tournaments I played against Al Farouq-Aminu, Amir Johnson, Luc Richard Mbahamoute, Damion James, etc. and a bunch of guys who are now pros in Europe. In AAU tournaments there were a bunch of guys who ended up playing in the NBA that I played against in tournaments like the Kingwood Classic. I'm talking a whole bunch of NBA talent in that tournament. I haven't played in the NBA, obviously, but you cannot sit here and tell me you know what you are talking about because you read some stuff online and that I can't understand the sooooooooooo complex NBA game because it's beyond my comprehension.
I certainly will try good sir. And I would like to say that you have an agile mind and a combative nature. Both qualities that I admire. From your viewpoint how many plays do the Rockets run within the constraints of the 24 second shot clock? To take a simple example they throw the ball into Howard in the post. Called play or just offensive system principle? Howard has no easy scoring opportunity. Howard passes out to a wing. Harden receives the ball. Howard takes two steps out and sets a high pick. Called play or just offensive system principle? Harden takes his man off the dribble, and then after penetration passes out to an open perimeter man. Called play or just offensive system principle? The perimeter man then puts up a three point shot. This sounds like a pretty typical Rockets possession. Is this offensive sequence a function of play calling or just sound R&R offense? Is it possible to actually get the offense on the same page three times in 24 seconds? Unless of course they are just reacting to what the defense gives them, and doing what their honed basketball instincts tell them to do. That is a subtle but very important issue.
Just so everybody knows where jtr's level of thinking is at, he has emphatically stated time and again that the Houston Rockets are doing this: He believes that the coaches of the Rockets watched Rick Torbett's DVD series called "The Read & React Offense" and they are following the DVD's. Yes, I'm serious. He has said this.
When players are playing a 2-man game, that is within the offense. So passing to the post, setting a ball screen, whatever. I don't know the rules to their offense because I'm not at their practices, so I don't know what the other players' options are. But when you see them set up in the horns set, and there are several off-ball screens being set, that is a play. That is something that has been practiced and called. It isn't just happening organically. They'll call a play after a made basket. They'll run it. If it works, it works. If not, they'll continue with their regular offense until they get a shot.
So much for me playing nice? You have nothing but your opinion and your eye test to support your position. Nothing. You may value it, but I doubt this forum values it. I certainly see it for what it is worth. ****. Opinions and eye tests carry no weight. None. You are a fan. Nothing more. When unsupported your opinions mean absolutely nothing. Get back to me when you have an NBA expert like Morey coming down on your side. Until then I leave you with this:
