Best front court in the league? 2008 Playoffs: Gasol - 16.9PPG - 9.3RPG - 4.0APG - 1.9BPG Odom - 14.3 - 10.0 - 3.0 - 1.3 Bynum - DNP 2009 Playoffs: Gasol - 18.3 - 10.8 - 2.5 - 2.0 Odom - 12.3 - 9.1 - 1.8 - 1.3 Bynum - 6.3 - 3.7 - 0.4 - 0.4 2010 Playoffs: Gasol - 19.6 - 11.1 - 3.5 - 2.1 Odom - 9.7 - 8.6 - 2.0 - 0.9 Bynum - 8.6 - 6.9 - 0.5 - 1.6 So overall from 2008-2010, while Kobe was carrying the Lakers to 3 straight Finals (and winning 2 rings), this is the best C-PF-SF combination in the league, and an equal comparison to Shaq 2000-2002? If we average out those numbers over the 3 players and the 3 playoff seasons, let's see what exactly is the average production Kobe could rely upon, in any given playoff game, from any of the 3 players, who together formed the NBA's best frontcourt, shall we? This is your Composite Lakers Frontcourt Playoff stat-line from 2008-2010: 11.8 PPG 7.7 RPG 2.0 APG 1.3 BPG WOW!!! How incredible!!! AMAZING!!! Damn, with a frontcourt of D12, TJ and Parsons next to James Harden, the Rockets are a given for the best frontcourt in today's NBA, right? Wait ... forget today's NBA ... with the statistical baseline you have established as "NBA's best" ... could the Rockets currently have the greatest frontcourt in NBA history???? If Kobe could go to 3 straight Finals and win 2 with the 'best frontcourt in the NBA' averaging those numbers, just imagine what Harden could do with these guys over the next 4 years! Just wondering if this might help you rethink the 'greatness' of Kobe's frontcourt while he was winning those championships???
When I have the time, I'll actually breakdown the Lakers' 2001-2003 Shaq frontcourt vs 2008-2010 Gasol frontcourt so I can truly illustrate the Grand-Canyon-sized gap between the help Shaq and his co-horts gave Kobe and the help he received from Gasol's crew My guess: normalized to the max 48 mins any 1 player can play in a normal playoff game, I'll bet Shaq 2001-03 BY HIMSELF was more productive per 48 than your trio of Gasol/Bynum/Odom contributed COMBINED! Of course, not hard to do when your comparing 30&15 to 12&8
What's your point? Of course the Shaq-led frontcourt was much better than Gasol/Bynum/Odom. That doesn't change the fact that Gasol/Bynum/Odom was the best frontcourt in the league.
Great post!! They are QUICK to throw around stats to downplay Kobe's accomplishments. But this whole "Best Frontcourt" myth doesn't add up, and the stats support it. Compare Bosh & Wade numbers and I'd bet we'd have a different story.
Funny, how you disregarded the regular season numbers? It's also funny that you didn't mention their overall point per game total (regular season and playoffs)? I guess having a top 5 power forward and a top 5 center, is something to scoff at? I also find it funny how you didn't add Kobe's numbers in there as well, because he's numbers were up and down as well, especially in the 2008 and 2010 NBA Finals. It's funnier how you could not even point out a better front line in the league at the time than Bynum and Gasol.
Yeah, I'm supposed to believe having two seven footers who can play above average defense, along with one of the more athletically gifted 6,9-6,10 players in the league is going to matter when no other team in the league at the time remotely had that type of talent on both sides of the ball. That's all I asked is for one of the Kobe cheerleaders to name a better front court of players than the Lakers group (Bynum/Gasol/Odom - Artest/Ariza)
You're forgetting that in the 08-09 season, Garnett got injured after the all-star game and missed the playoffs entirely. The Lakers clearly had the advantage in the 08-09 season. In the 09-10 season, Garnett still had lingering injuries, and the Celtics/Lakers ended up with a comparable defensive rating. Offensively, look at their PERs. Pierce's was 19.1, Garnett's was 19.4, and Perkins' was 15. Gasol's was 22.9, Bynum's was 20.2, and Odom's was 15.9. By what rationale are you ranking Perkins/Garnett/Pierce above Gasol/Odom/Bynum?
You would have been better off going with Nene/Martin/Melo in 08-09. You might have a decent argument when you factor in Bynum not playing a ton of minutes in the playoffs.
Um Pierce was the SF, Like Ariza/Metta were in 09 and 10, Odom was the backup big, ie he was baby davis (who replaced kg in 09 and was the primary backup in 10). Getting 36 and 25 out of your 3 man C/PF rotation is huge.
Who cares about regular season when allocating credit for the Lakers 3 Finals appearances and 2 wins? I'm interested in debunking the myth that Gasol/Bynum/Odom were the best frontcourt in the league that year, and whether or not that combination's support of Kobe even remotely compares to the support he got from Shaq during the playoffs For a better frontcourt, how about that of the Orlando Magic team that the Lakers beat in the Finals in 2009? 2008 Playoffs: D12 - 18.9PPG - 15.8RPG - 0.9APG - 3.4BPG PER=23.2 Rashard Lewis - 19.5 - 7.2 - 3.4 - 0.5 PER=18.3 Hedo Turkoglu - 17.5 - 6.4 - 5.5 - 0.2 PER=15.3 2009 Playoffs: D12 - 20.3 - 15.3 - 1.9 - 2.6 PER=25.5 Rashard Lewis - 19 - 6.4 - 2.9 - 0.5 PER=16.9 Hedo Turkoglu - 15.8 - 4.5 - 4.8 - 0.2 PER=13.2 2010 Playoffs: D12 - 18.1 - 11.1 - 1.4 - 3.5 PER=22.2 Rashard Lewis - 12.9 - 5.6 - 2.3 - 0.7 PER=14.2 Matt Barnes - 6.4 - 4.7 - 1.4 - 0.2 PER=12.6 Composite Magic Frontcourt Playoff Statline from 2008-2010: 16.5 PPG 8.6 RPG 2.7 APG 1.3 BPG 17.9 PER And now, the Lakers' frontcourt averages again: 11.8 PPG 7.7 RPG 2.0 APG 1.3 BPG 15.9 PER Seems like 1 is clearly better by the numbers .... might be more than 1, but I've at least come up with 1 example of a better frontcourt over the same time span And even with a clearly-superior frontcourt to that of the Lakers, the Magic still lost to them in the 2009 Finals .... hmmm?!?!? Maybe that Kobe guy was the difference after all??? Or maybe it was just Derek Fisher's complete domination of the PG matchup with Jameer Nelson that tipped the scales towards the Lakers in that series??? Because it was clearly not their frontcourt advantage that won them a ring ... we've just proven that, right?
STOP USING SMALL FORWARDS They were wing players, more interchangeable with shooting guards, not front court players in those teams, especially Orlando. Just like you didn't include Ariza in the Lakers front court when he was their starting small forward.
Why not keep going? Who cares about anything other than game 7 of the finals when allocating credit for the Lakers' 2010 title? Kobe had 23 pts on 6-24 shooting, 15 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal, and 4 turnovers. He had a +/- of 0. Gasol had 19 pts on 6-16 shooting, 18 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 blocks, and 1 turnover. He had a +/- of +7. It's pretty clear who had a better game and a bigger impact.
So now we are including Trevor Ariza and Ron Artest as "the NBA's best frontcourt" from 2008-2010? I don't think that helps the case, and certainly won't push their cumulative production to best that of the Magic over the same time period ... I thought I was being generous to the Lakers side of the argument by excluding them And I have to use SF's ... the debate centered around 'frontcourt', which is both forwards and the center ... not my definition, he said 'frontcourt' instead of 'big men', and he specifically referenced Gasol, Bynum and Odom as "the NBA's best", so that's the myth I have refuted Odom started all 21 playoff games in 2008, but yes, Ariza and RonRon started all the games in the 2 years they won the title ... again, replacing Odom with those 2 does nothing but make the disparity between the Lakers and Magic even greater
Ok, if you want, put in the time to expand this to include reg season stats ... I would like to see the results My original point was that people were comparing Kobe's role in the 1st 3 title runs (with Shaq) to his role in the final 2 titles (with Gasol/Bynum/Odom) as if they were the same They were not Gasol was clearly the difference between the Kobe Lakers that barely made the playoffs after Shaq left (05-07) and the teams that made 3 straight Finals I'm not denying the impact he had for that team at all Odom arrived in the Shaq trade in 2004, and Bynum was drafted in 2005, so clearly a team built around those 2 + Kobe was barely good enough to get out of the lottery Adding Gasol, while giving up so little of the current rotation, is clearly the move that propelled this team to Kobe's second run of rings But to claim that upon Gasol's arrival he suddenly became a dominant, HoF post player comparable to vintage Shaq during this 3yr window... Or to claim that Odom was anything other than a journeyman role player and part-time starter / backup during this 3yr window... Or to claim that Bynum was a 'top 5 center' when he missed a ton of time and barely played (mostly as a backup) when he was healthy during this 3yr window... I just don't see how any of that adds up to 'the best frontcourt in the NBA', or how any of those guys can get even close the amount of credit for Kobe's final 2 rings that Shaq gets for the first 3 I noticed you didn't even bother to refute how, statistically, the 2009 Magic's frontcourt was clearly better than the Lakers', yet they still lost the Finals ... and that's just the first example I took the time to dissect ... there are probably more examples from other teams too Rick Fox, Ho Grant, Devean George and Robert Horry were critical role-playing forwards on championship teams with Kobe too ... IMO very comparable to the contributions made by Odom, Bynum, Ariza and RonRon from 2008-2010 But to even mention Gasol in the same sentence as Shaq when discussing importance to Kobe championship teams ... that's just nonsense
LOL Rashard Lewis Front court, yeah no, he stayed the three point line and didn't rebound didn't play defense neither did Hedo
It's very simple. If you think there was a better frontcourt in the 08-09 and 09-10 seasons, name it. You were serious about that? You ONLY looked at playoff stats. That in itself invalidates your argument. What about teams that didn't make the playoffs? Do they automatically have garbage frontcourt/backcourts? Steve Nash's Suns missed the playoffs in the 08-09 season. Since you're only looking at playoff stats, then by your logic, Derek Fisher was a better pg than Nash... In the 09 championship season, Bynum played 50 games, started all 50, and averaged 29 mpg. In the 2010 championship season, Bynum played 65 games, started all 65, and averaged 30 mpg. You call that barely playing, mostly as a backup? You keep referencing posters who said that Gasol was comparable to Shaq. Who exactly said that? If anything, Gasol was as important to the Lakers' last 2 rings as Kobe was to their first 3 (2000-2002).
