Wade wasn't top 5 the time, but even if he was, that's a huge gap between the top 2-3 players and him. Wade isn't on the level of a LeBron, Kobe, Bird or Magic, so any Magic wouldn't join Bird comparisons are silly because LeBron didn't join a player on that level. He didn't go play with Kobe or Duncan.
You know in the 80's and the 90's, the Eastern Conference was a powerhouse and not the **** it is now and was in the past decade. The teams that routinely kicked MJ's butt were the Celtics with Bird, McHale, Parrish and Johnson and the Pistons with the Bad Boys of Basketball. You expect MJ to beat teams with multiple HOF'ers on it by himself? Let's not kid ourselves. MJ would have been able to carry that Cleveland team to the Finals a lot more than LeBron did.
I agree the game has drastically changed, but for different reasons. The competition is just not the same. The talent gap between conferences is so big it's almost like watching 2 different leagues now. Taking a terrible Cleveland team to the finals is quite an accomplishment, but we have to take in consideration how bad the competition was Lebron faced that year too. Even now, Miami will have a cakewalk every year they make the playoffs until they see Indiana. It's embarrasing for the NBA. Plus players now are more concerned with "building a brand" than competing against the best players. Like if KD comes to Houston to join Harden & Howard, and becomes the GOAT while winning 10 championships, we'll still look at him and say he took a shortcut. But fans these days don't care about shortcuts. That's why I just can't put Lebron in any top 10 discussion
Well it's no different than in the 80s when the lakers would breeze through the west en route to finals. Celtics had to work a little more back then.
Um, no. The Lakers had several VERY tough teams they had to go through including the Rockets in the 80's. Are you serious???? This is why arguing with fans about Lebron's "legacy" is a waste of time, especially when they have NO history of the NBA outside of 2003.
This makes no sense. Why is it different when someone plays with HOFs through drafts and good trade vs. "teaming up" ? You can magically fuse Wade, Bosh, Mo, Big Z and every other player Lebron played with into a single player and this player would still be worse than Pippen
Clippy, that's the thing people don't understand about these greatest of all time arguments in any of these sports. It's always about this player had more rings ... but he played on better teams. It's about being in the right place at right time corresponding with your level of talent. Trust me, do people really think MJ would've stayed Chicago with a GM ... he almost bitterly dislike, since 85, if Krause made moves that did not work out to the Bulls favor or even more to MJ's dislike. It's a complicated game, people oversimplify. As great as Derek Jeter is, I doubt people would feel the same way about him, if he played for Toronto or Cincinnati. No player in NBA history would've one a championship with any of the worst teams of all time ... like bottom 8. You know most QBs need an above average to great line in front them, while in basketball teams have to play defense after all of their offensive position. "Defense," another thing people tend to forget about, along with individual matchups. So, trade Lebron for a younger MJ. You think the Cavs would've beaten... 2005-2007 Detroit Pistons 2006-07 San Antonio Spurs 2007-10 Boston Celtics 2009 Orlando Magic From what I remember, more times than not, Lebron played to quality good enough to win. I hate to mention to you as well, do you even know how MJ would perform against these kind of defenses, especially the Pistons who along with the Spurs of the time, may have been one of the greatest defensive squads ever. You guys are often guilty of what alot of critics do, Mark Cuban pointed this out to Skip Bayless, you are discrediting what other teams are doing. Sometimes, it's not about what the superstar does and what the other does to limit the superstar or slow down the other players. A superstar cannot play defense at all five positions, while he can score so many points unless he can pull a WIlt, which in its day had its limit. Same with MJ. His spectacular peformances could only take a team, so far, without other pieces in places. If I could choose a player that could've won a title with the Cavs, it would be like two centers that's it...Wilt Chamberlain (before 1968) and Hakeem Olajuwon. I don't think other player would've won a title in their first seven seasons with the Cavs from 03-10. If you look how badly that team dropped off after LeBron left should be an indicator how superstar reliant that team was...and nine times out of ten, the teams ever tend to have several other pieces outside of one central superstar and everyone else as mild roleplayer. Most people would think that, but how true is that...one individual cannot put his team on and win a series. It almost never happens, especially given basketball is a two way sport. I've seen players break record offensively, only to lose a series. Though, I don't think impossible and have seen it happen, the only problem is the standard is reserved and only plausible with big men Who cover wider range of actual gameplay ... scoring, rebounding, and interior defense. I will continue to say that I've never seen a superstar win a title by himself. It's too presumptious when people say that ... it's almost saying that a player won on a team with a terrible defense, mediocre coach, and next to useless role-players. Those teams to make it to playoffs, but I've only seen really happen, twice to where it lead to a title. I completely disagree with your notion of Durant ... what if Westbrook is permanently affected by these knee injuries; what if the Thunder keep penny-pinching; and what if these other teams, like the Spurs; Clippers; Rockets; Warriors; and Nuggets keep making substantial to minor moves for their respective teams to get better from year-to-year. The West is a very tough conference to win, pretty much every championship team for the last 25 years that have come out of the West is OVERLY battle-tested. The Eastern 7th and 8th seed teams are usually pushovers, the Western teams are sometimes a tough 5 or 7 game series. Since 1990, I think like five or six teams with a low seeds (7th and 8th) have forced an elimination game. The Harden argument isn't quite valid, given that he wasn't a superstar in OKC until his last year or so ... then they had the mistfortune of playing eventual champions (Lakers and Heat)
Because teaming up and conspiring to join two other superstars is something a role player would do to chase a ring. Superstars in their primes don't ring chase, unless they don't want full responsiblity in being the "Man". Now he's on a team where the responsiblity of being the MAN is shared by 2 other superstars. Good for him. He's a great player who will forever have that asterick next to his name
From the 79/80 season through the 89/90 season, the lakers went to the finals 8 times. We can say that they faced tough teams every year and they persevered and fought their way through. But the odds point to the fact that when one team wins the western conference 8 years out of 10, it's not that competitive. Plus, it would have been 9 out of 10 if not for that lucky eyes closed game winner by Ralph Sampson. Heres the history of the winners: http://www.nba.com/history/finals/champions.html
If you didnt watch basketball closely during that time period, then I see how one can say that. But it's simply not true. The whole league was so much more competitive and a overrall better brand of basketball. Lebron's run with Cleveland was a good run, but you HAVE TO consider how weak that conference was. Who exactly of significancedid he beat besides that washed up Pistons team? Were any of teams he beat considered legendary? I'll wait.....................
Well, I was in elementary school for that decade, but my dad used to take me to Lakers games at the Fabulous Forum all the time and I was actually at that game when Sampson made that volleyball shot to beat the Lakers. Funny thing is, as a kid, I always expected the Lakers would be in the championship every year. I used to ask my dad, when do the Lakers get their trophies after every game. The only team that I thought had a chance against the Lakers was the Globetrotters who my dad kept telling me is a fake team but I wouldn't believe it. Anyway, as competitive as you may think it was back then, no team since the 80's has dominated a conference the way the Lakers did that decade. I mean, 8 out of 10 years to the Finals and could have been 9 if it weren't for that shot. Those were years where the expectations were that the Lakers were in the Finals every year. Also, when I watch those old 80's games on NBA TV, there was very little defense played. I didn't realize it back then, but on re-watch, it's pretty comical. There were tons of hard fouls between Mchale and Kurt Rambis, but besides that, it was the ole defense when the opponent was driving to the basket.
Brother, it's putting your family on your back and making sure they get home safe. Home, being an nba title. A lot of you new age boys never saw MJ or young Kobe play. No, Kobe is not the overall player LeBron is nor the pure scorer Durant is. But he did what it took to close games out.. and attracted enough attention for substandard role players like Fox, Fisher (at the time)Shaw etc. to work the openings given to em. 2 rings with Gasol is pretty impressive as well considering his prime was wasted. LBJ did the whole wade's lapdog thing and changed the way the league worked. Though Durant hasn't won anything, props to him for not speaking up about Harden leaving or asking for a trade while every other superstar is looking to team up. Durant is super focused this season, you can see it, because he wants to see it through til the end, so NOW we will be able to see over the coming years if he measures up to Kobe.
You should read what I actually said. I would believe that if MJ was leading the team they would have made it to the NBA Finals more then what LeBron accomplished. The 1998-1990 Pistons were one of the best defensive squads of all time and had a great offense to match. They also played with the "Jordan Rule." MJ was still brilliant in those series. I think he would manage against the Pistons, considering the 2005-2007 Pistons were pretty inept offensively. As for winning a championship, that is a whole other story. The Western conference was so dominant during that period.
The Pistons under flip (2005-06 and 06-07) were the 4th and 6th best offenses in the NBA. That's not really inept unless you have a really weird definition of the word.
KD>>>>>> Kobe. KD is just heads and shoulders more versatile than Kobe. Not too often a 6'9" with legit guard handles and shooting touch.
One problem about you mentioning offense...this will be MJ playing with the Cavs from 2004-2009, while I don't think you realize how good that particular Detroit team was (with Larry Brown or Flip Saunders): As physical and well-rounded the Bad Boys were in the 80s, look what the Pistons did with slightly tougher rules, also add in the fact that could use illegal defenses. Jordan rules and the illegal defenses are a trade off. I agree, the 1980s, maybe, more talented, but the defensively, it's a push at best. You remember this is the same team that more or less help take Kobe out of the series in the Finals, while they did as good job as anyone would've against Shaq. I read everything you say and I respectfully disagreed, do you even know what LeBron's numbers were those playoff games. He played exceptionally well against both Pistons and Celtics...in fact he had 45 point Game 7 against the Celtics in the 08 playoffs. Same thing, the next year against Orlando. Another thing, you didn't even say was which years that they would've actually reached the Finals. As good as Dumars, Rodman, Aguirre, and Thomas were, you'd be foolish to think would've had an easier time against Billups/Hamilton/Prince/Rasheed/Ben or KG/Pierce/Ray Allen/Rondo/Tony Allen. 2005-06 Detroit Pistons (64 win team) 2005-06 Miami Heat (Shaq/Wade team with some outstanding role players) 2005-06 Dallas Mavericks (Best team talent wise) 2006-07 Detroit Pistons (LeBron beat them that year) 2006-07 San Antonio Spurs (The Cavs would've been dead meat with anyway) 2007-08 Boston Celtics (66 wins, They were in that series) 2007-08 Detroit Pistons (59 wins) 2007-08 Los Angeles Lakers (57 wins w/ Kobe/Gasol/Odom/Phil Jackson) 2008-09 Orlando Magic (59 wins, LeBron played outstanding in that series, only problem ... his teammates failed to come through in the clutch. Dwight Howard was also dominating the Cavs big men) 2008-09 Los Angeles Lakers (64 wins, Kobe/Gasol/Bynum/Odom/Phil Jackson) 2009-10 Boston Celtics (You might have a case, here) 2009-10 Orlando Magic (59 wins, again that would've been a tough matchup) 2009-10 Los Angeles Lakers (Another tough team)
I like reading the first page of these, then the last page, to see how far the tangential stuff has degraded off topic.
