[ClutchFans] The numbers are clear: Patrick Beverley deserves to start over Jeremy Lin

Rondo/Lin/Harden probably can't start together. They would be too undersized and the extra defensive effort they would have to exert to compensate would be too much for long stretches. Could see them closing games though.

 

we get it you were trying to be sarcastic/funny...

for some LOFs being ESL they wont get it...

and if you had a 2012 join date...

that would have been considered a LOF quote and genuine LOF mindset...

by long time Rox fans

 

I'm not joking about Lin starting if we get Rondo. Lin's game pairs with Rondos much better than Beverly. Rondo and Beverly are really similar defenders. Jeremy is a dynamic offensive player, especially at the SG.

*Edited* Whoops, I apologize for leaving this off: http://www.82games.com/1314/13HOU4.HTM *end Edit*

Scroll down to his PER at SG: It's 19.7.

That's not bad at all. And if you watch him guard 2s, he's pretty damn good at it. To me, Jeremy should definitely not be a starting PG, but he can start if he plays SG and the opposing player is not the primary ball-handler.

And it's not a stretch at all to call Harden a SF. He can guard PFs. He's asked to guard PFs in the past. Harden is long and strong, but slow. Defensively, I think he's out of position at the 2.

 

This is all true. Lin is a much more effective defender defending 2's than 1's. The same way Harden is a much better defender defending 3's and 4's than he is 2's.

So if a Rondo trade included Beverley going out, then our finishing 5 could very well become: Rondo/Lin/Harden/Dwight/Parsons.

And like I have said previously, if we don't make a trade our best 5 players are Bev/Lin/Harden/Dwight/Parsons. So look to see a lot of that lineup closing out games in the playoffs.

And if we trade Lin in a Rondo deal and keep Bev, then our best 5 players is:

Rondo/Bev/Harden/Dwight/Parsons. So look for that 5 to be closing games.

 

The same website shows that Lin guards PGs better than SGs if not much better.

 

Please correct me if I'm missing something, but his offensive PER is 13.0 at PG and the opponent is 14.4. This is a net negative.

His PER on offense is 19.7 and the opponent is 16.2. This is a net positive.

Will you double-check that for me?

 

What I said was simply 16.2>14.4. I am not interested in what you wanted to say below.

 

Why? Because I'm right? He's more effective at the SG and why does that bother you? Be smart. The data is right in front of you. You can do this. I promise.

He is what he is and his stats prove it. He's meant to be a SG. No need to take it all personal like.

You new guys seriously need to really look at the numbers. Jeremy Lin is a special player, but he's not destined to be X, where X is your imagination for him. He's a developing player and right now it looks like he's developing a solid SG game. That's good and should be celebrated. Especially if we get Rondo. Rondo+Lin>>>>Rondo+Bev.

 

You are not worth a discussion, sir. You are going on my ignore list.

Before that, I will tell you why his PER is this way. He is playing with Harden when he is playing PG. He is playing with Bev when he is playing SG.

 

Agree, hell if we can close with

Beverley
Lin
Harden
Parsons
Howard

then Rondo can be plugged in...

 

After I go on your ignore list. I just wanted to tell you that your argument is really confusing. I wish it had more explanation because you might have a totally legit and respectable perspective here, but rather than explain it with words, you quit on me.

Quitting doesn't win championships.

 

You say you respect his opinion but previously before you responded in a condescending tone (only because his response was condescending as well). That is why no one wins in an argument. If both clearly perceive to be superior than the other without respecting each other's opinion, then no one will agree to anything.

Just pointing out something that occurs very often on this board. I guess that's just the nature of it.

Having said that, I can see both sides to don's and the other guy's argument.

 

Can you explain what he or she was saying about playing with Harden vs Bev? I'm honestly confused as to what s/he's saying specifically. Like as in, playing with Harden, Harden does everything and Lin therefore does less during those periods? I certainly realize that PGs are putting less numbers up than SGs do and therefore the PER would be lower, but if you're not beating your man, you're not as effective as when you do beat your man.

Lin's numbers indicate that he's winning the SG battles and losing the PG ones.

 

The fact is that there are far more talented and dangerous PGs than SGs in the league.

 

Well I THINK he is saying overall regardless of how high his PER is as an SG, his overall defense is still better on the PG end than SG. That's just my interpretation. I was waiting for more explanation though because his statement drew my curiosity...I think we are both left with wanting more

 

In terms of defense, 14.4 against PG is much better than 16.2 against SG in my view just for the fact that there are many more talented PGs than SGs in the league right now. You can compare Lin's defensive numbers against Harden's playing SG and Lin's numbers are worse (EFG%, PER). So his defense against SGs can not be rated good by these numbers.

In terms of offense, we know it is a different Lin playing with and without Harden. So comparing his PER playing PG and SG is not too meaningful. At least you need to adjust for something like USG%.

In terms of net rating, it is going to be difficult for any PG to outplay his counterpart on a regular basis playing alongside Harden since Harden is going to be handling the ball. It is not necessarily a bad thing for the team though under the premise that Harden is more efficient as a playmaker.

 

Okay, I get it. Beverly has the same kind of position numbers (better PER when at SG vs PG).

So this comparison does not work in overall effectiveness of the team while these players are at certain positions. Q, you may agree or disagree, but I think it might be helpful to have the +/- numbers of the team while a player is at each position versus when someone else plays that position.

The five man units can tell us some of that?

http://www.82games.com/1314/1314HOU2.HTM

Beverley-Harden-Parsons-Jones-Howard 328.4 minutes 1.15off 1.04 def +71 overall

Lin-Harden-Parsons-Jones-Howard 297.6 minutes 1.13off 1.11def +14 overall

 

Fair assessment, I can't think of many SGs in the league that are really great. I can easily think of plenty of PGs though.

 

I guess I'm extremely late to the thread, but I don't understand why this is even a debate.

Bev works well with the starters, deferring to Parsons/Harden/Howard.

Lin works better with the second group, when he can create drive, get his own shot, and kick it out to our three point shooters in Garcia etc.

Both thrive in their roles right now, why change it?

 

And we have James Harden. The best SG in the league. Lin is irrelevant. He will come off the bench and be a valuable contributor. Please stop pushing him as a starter.