Wekko, I credit you for having the patience you do but I would stop. This guy doesn't have a clue about basketball and worships a Kobe shrine in his room.
Why does your personal experience matter? Professional athletes are totally different than normal people, especially divas. Remember Latrell Sprewell? Everyone thought he was full of empty threats. They couldn't. Kobe had veto power. There was supposedly a deal in place that would've sent Kobe to Chicago in a trade centering around Deng. Kobe vetoed it b/c Chicago would've been left with a garbage supporting cast. If that's the case, why does Lebron get so much hate for leaving Cleveland? I know he said he was going to bring a title to Cleveland, and I know he said he loved Cleveland, but apparently, you can't assume he meant any of it...
He gets so much hate because of the way he did it. And Cleveland fans would say his actions spoke much louder than his words.
Your 100% correct. But also keep in mind that MJ said it himself that he couldn't imagine ever teaming up with Magic or any other superstar to win a championship. So not only did Cleveland frown upon it, but the greatest player of all time didn't respect him running to Miami either. It's a asterisk that'll forever be attached to his name until wins a ring WITHOUT 2 other superstars
Yeah, MJ said he couldn't see himself joining with any other superstars because he wanted to beat guys like Barkley and Malone rather than teaming up. He said people were more competitive back then. I mean, could you imagine if Magic and Bird teamed up? They actually made each other better by wanting to upstage each other. If they joined forced, Magic and Bird would not be the players they were. That said, I think the game is very different than before. It used to be about wanting to be the best, but now it seems to be more about how many rings you have regardless about competition or not. Ironically, this is probably partly due to the endorsement dynamics in today's NBA that MJ ignited. All the players think about themselves as a brand and stats, marketability, number of rings, and city they play in are such a big deal. Getting back to the whole point of the thread, Durant is a regular season stat guy so far. Until he does it in the postseason, none of his great numbers make a difference. The Thunder looked like crap after Westbrook went down so, as far as I'm concerned, the jury is still out on Durant until he produces in playoffs. Kobe has made a living in the post season and won 5 titles and played in 7 championship series'. Lebron is passing up Kobe in the GOAT rankings is one thing, but Durant is a bit pre-mature. Kobe always says that any season where he does not win a championship is a wasted season. So by that rule, Durant has done nothing in his career but contribute to 6 wasted seasons so far. He is in season 7 and we will see if it will be yet another wasted season.
And MJ is full of ish, because he happily teamed up with Rodman when he already had Pippen. Bird and Magic were arguably the best players on Earth. Neither Wade or Bosh have ever been considered to be that. You might have a point if LeBron joined up with Duncan or Kobe.
I think Wade was top 5 at the time though. What do you guys think of James Worthy? I mean, do you think Magic had James Worthy to help him win or do you think James Worthy was just a supplemental player? He was an all star almost every year at the time and was key to many Lakers championships. Also, Derek Fisher is probably one of the most underrated point guards of all time. Kobe never own a title without Fisher and he made several key plays that allowed the Lakers to win in each of the 3 titles Kobe and Shaq won and the 2 that Kobe and Gasol won.
The Magic and Bird rivalry was really special. They really pushed each other to a point where they would check box scores every game to see what the other was doing. Their goal was to beat the other in the Finals every season. Sadly, when Magic was forced into retirement, Bird, also injury ridden at the time, didn't have the drive to continue. He was never the same at that point and eventually just fell into retirement. That was always Michael Jordan's kryptonite in that he never had an equal to drive him to want to be better. He had to create his own drive and felt pleasure in dominating the rest of his all star contemporaries like Sir Charles, Clyde the Glyde, and the Mailman. Just to throw this in for the heck of it...that season that the Rockets beat the Lakers in the Western Conference finals off of that no look volleyball shot Ralph Sampson made screwed the Lakers over in the final title count. That Lakers team would have destroyed the Celtics, but the Rockets got them and the Celtics still have more titles than the Lakers because of it.
What Kobe sycophants like goodbug here don't understand is that basketball is a team game, and if you don't happen to get drafted or traded to the right team, there's a good chance you'll never win anything. And unfortunately, not winning is greatly frowned upon as far as evaluating individual achievement. People don't put Barkley, Malone, 'Nique, and many others in that upper echelon because of it. LeBron got more out of that ****ty Cleveland squad than any player could-- it's not like MJ (and certainly not Kobe) would have done better. At some point, he knew that he was going to need help to win a title so he made a very good career move. Some players don't have to do this because they are setup from the beginning (like Kobe and Magic) or later through fortune and good management decisions (like Bird and MJ). Others choose to ride it out through bad management (like Nique). Heck, most players at some point in their careers do force trades or leave for greener pastures in free agency just as LeBron did, and some don't even succeed with that approach (like Barkley). The hate on LeBron was largely for the egotistical spectacle that was the decision, but that is years ago now. The truth is that he's been the best player in the NBA for the majority of his career and winning was absolutely expected once he had a decent squad around him. The Heat are a more than decent squad but people act like what LeBron has done isn't noteworthy-- I doubt anyone else in the league would have won in his position last year with his supporting cast as injured and noncontributing as they were. Nowadays, I suspect the hate is mostly from Kobe fans who really have nothing else to do now that their hero is done. You can just see the bitterness oozing from their posts as the rest of the world is finally realizing how much better of a player LeBron is.. and it will only get worse for them over time. As a fan of the game, I have to say I am greatly enjoying this turn of events.
MJ did all his work on the Bulls and they built a team around him. He spent many years being called a ball hog and not a player that makes his team better like Magic and Bird. Kobe was the final piece in helping Shaq win on the Lakers and then he stayed on the Lakers to let them build around him by adding Gasol. Karl Malone never won but had his chances. I think it is a team sport, but of all the major sports, the NBA is the one where one player can win a title. Of course they need to be on good teams, but the finishing touches are on them. Malone had a team that was capable of winning and he didn't. Sir Charles also had a team around him capable of winning in Phoenix but he didn't do it. Durant had a team capable of winning and he lost in the finals to the Miami Heat. By the way Clippy, what's your handle on Clippers Top Buzz?
MJ was drafted to a **** team and routinely got his butt kicked in the playoffs. LeBron actually did a lot better with his garbage than MJ did (just as Magic would have if given the opportunity). The difference between MJ and LeBron isn't that MJ was some kind of competitive hero and LeBron a coward-- it was that Bulls management actually did a great job in drafting players to suit MJ's talent vs. Ferry & Cleveland who brought in Mo Williams, over the hill Shaq, and over the hill Jameson for LeBron. Come on. Kobe desperately wanted to be thought of as the #1 guy but the moment he was put in the very common situation of "great player, **** teammates" -- the same situation LeBron had his whole career up to that point and guys like VC, McGrady, Allen, etc had for most of their careers-- he started pouting to the media and making trade demands. Luckily for him, the Lakers are the primo destination and their management was able to perform highway robbery to surround him with the best frontcourt in the NBA.. again. But if they had been, say, Cleveland, he would have bolted out of there at first opportunity. Where's the competitive spirit? I am not on TopBuzz. I got banned because their moderator Clippersfan86 is an emotionally disturbed nutjob.
We will never really know if Kobe would really bolt the Lakers. He has always said that he's been playing for the Lakers since he was 7 years old. It's sort of like owning a BMW. You complain all the time about the service fees, but when it comes down to it and you have to buy a new car, you end up buying another BMW anyway. These forum sites are very sensitive. I got kicked off the Rockets Moves portion of this site because I argued that Harden was not a top 10 player in the NBA. I'm a life long Lakers fan but Clipper season ticketholder because I can't get in the lower bowl for the Lakers...being honest. I almost got banned on Clipper Top Buzz because I didn't hate the Lakers enough. I'm surprised I haven't been booted on the Grizzlies forum yet. What do you think the chances are that Lebron signs a one year deal for league minimum to play with his best friend CP3 next year and then a max deal the following season? Or, would you trade a 24 year old Blake Griffin for Lebron in the offseason? Sterling is a cheap SOB but he's looking at what the Lakers and Dodgers did on their cable deals and is starting to figure it out.
If you throw out regular season accomplishments, because lets face it, they mean nothing. Here are the comparisons in scoring because that's what Kobe and Durant do: Kobe: 5640 points Durant: 1546 points Kobe is nearing the end, but Durant has a ways to go. Until these numbers are closer, I don't think this comparison should even be made. If we are talking Kobe prime vs Durant prime, I hope we aren't considering Durant in his prime yet because his championship ring count is 0 right now.
Ring count is the dumbest way to evaluate a player because it is a team accomplishment and strongly variable based on the state of the league at the time (hence very era specific). There is pretty much no argument to put any season of Kobe's ahead of Durant's this year, and it's questionable if any season of Kobe's was better than Durant's last year. Where Kobe has most players beat is in his prime longevity-- many years of good (albeit not best in the league) productivity. Whether Durant will surpass that is an open question.
I don't think NBA basketball is as much of a team effort as MLB or NFL because it is the one major team sport where an individual can really take over and win a championship on their back. Yes, there are players in situations where they have no shot, but Durant is not one of them. If Harden is truly an all star and superstar as many on this site believe, then Durant should have no excuse for not winning it all with him and Westbrook on his team. Winning a title gives you an experience that helps you in future attempts. Kobe has this experience that Durant does not. Not to say Durant will never have this experience, but until he does, I just don't think a Kobe/Durant comparison makes any sense right now.
Durant is a young guy and he's been the star of a team that has improved every year. He got to the Finals very early and you can't fault him for losing there despite having a good team, because he ran into an equally (or more) stacked team led by the best player on the planet. This is one reason why rings are a stupid judge of legacy; not only do you have to factor in your teammates, but also what teams you happen to run into. Barkley probably would have had a ring or two had he not been on good teams at the same time as the dynasty Bulls. He shouldn't be judged for that misfortune.
Some importance should be given to killer instinct. I'm not a fan of Kobe but he had a certain way of performing in high pressure situations. A certain lethal edge. Let's see if KD develops that with more playoff exposure but there is a reason Hakeem will always be in a tier above Malone, Robinson and Ewing despite being an arguably poorer reg season performer.
What is killer instinct? the drive to take every shot that can lead you to shooting 6-24 in a deciding game 7? The guy is an extremely poor clutch performer, but has volume'd his way into reverence.
Durant has been amazing playoff performer so far, far better than someone like Kobe or Bird(who outside of 3 title runs was notorious underperformer in the playoffs). Currently on 37 straight games with 20+ points streak in the playoffs.
