[ClutchFans] The numbers are clear: Patrick Beverley deserves to start over Jeremy Lin

You are not adding to the discussion. At least the man was able to provide some statistics, be it grade 5 or not. Please back up your statements and avoid using name calling as a way to validate your anecdotes.

 

He's trying to point out that there are entirely too many variables in a single game to justify using simple Win/Loss as a valid statistic. There are many advanced statistics that can measure team performance in regards to various line ups that are more valuable.

For example: If Lin started a game where Howard and Harden were out injured and Jeremy had a monster game but the Rockets lose, the "L" is not a good measurement of Lin's value or contribution. And vice versa.

 

See my previous post about Win/Loss being a little too vague as a good metric.

The Titans won a lot of games with Vince Young as the QB. Does that mean Vince Young is a great QB or more deserving to start? Lots of variables.

 

Wow. I really don't know how to respond to your argument. I guess, it speaks for itself.:grin:

 

Since the Spurs victory (first game of the winning streak), Lin is shooting about 38% from the 3pt line.

 

Lin's played 25 games as a starter and 28 from the bench. That means he's averaged a position change every other game. He doesn't have full PG duties, doesn't have the ball most of the time, a team that doesn't run enough PnR, and very few screens ever set for him. The fact that he's productive despite all this is grossly understated. If anyone else had their element shifted as much as Lin has, they probably wouldn't be doing as well.

 

The numbers Clutch used are significantly more useful to this discussion than just wins and losses. Go back to the dinosaur era you're probably from.

 

Larsv8, you have a point. But you lost a little bit credibility to LOF's when you made this claim:

Stats show the Rockets have performed vastly better with Beverley in the starting lineup. It absolutely matters.

That "Stats" is just not true, it's wrong. Clutch wasn't wrong when he started this thread because the numbers then did match the reality somewhat. But as the season went on, stats have changed. At this point, the numbers alone are no longer indicative of anything.

 

I understand. But if you see qiantom1999's original argument of "Who starts between the two has almost zero impact on Rockets winning the game." LarvS8 disagreed with that statement. While myself and Razsan agreed with it. I provided the winning percentage of the Rockets when they start. The percentages are close, with Lin's start winning percentage being a tad better. I didn't say that Lin should start.

 

Everyone is putting too much of their own opinions into this. Let's face the facts here.

It is a fact that whenever Bev starts, the starting units AND bench produces significantly better.
It is a fact that Lin starting generated a better winning ratio.

However anyone want to translate this is all mere theories. Trying to make a fact out of it like some people here as if they know what they're talking about is all BS. At the end of the day a lot more numbers and scenarios need to be attributed before you can come to any significant conclusion.

Right now it's just bickering on opinions where one can argue that Bev should start because of production and another argue that Lin should start because of results.

 

I am a little puzzled why the winning/loss ratio is not a valid statistics. One could even argue that the winning/loss ratio is the utlimate barometer of success. Last time I check, winning by 1 point counts as much as winning by 30 points. I'd rather my team win ugly than losing beautifully.

Again, I see the merits of having either PB or Lin starting. I totally understand the coaching staff's point of view. I am fine with PB starting. But this doesn't mean that they must have made absolutely the correct decision. You know, they are human beings as well and they can make mistakes as well just like every single one of us here :grin:

 

All I can say is he's got to be versatile and flexible. It's just the way it is. Even if he does cough up the rest of the season, gets traded or whatever I think somebody will give him another contract when this one is over.

 

So we are argueing what numbers are more useful now? Okay. Are the numbers by Clutch the only ones can be used? Will personal stats count? Look it up, and tell me Beverly is "clearly" better. Dinosaur era my a$$. What, you're going to call me LOF now? If you have something useful to contribute to the discussion lay it out, don't be so freaking arrogant jesus christ

 

Really, please share with us what the stats say now.

 

Seriously. He deserves some sort of award for perseverance.

If I were Les I would fear a lawsuit for unfair treatment.

 

Sure. Win/loss, and personal stats. Mind you I already said these numbers are premature and are not indicative of anything. I am just against the notion that there exist any stats that show one is "vastly" better than the other. Now could you share with us the stats they you claimed?

Stats show the Rockets have performed vastly better with Beverley in the starting lineup. It absolutely matters

 

Yea your original statement suggested that Clutch's lineup statistics were outdated and had changed since he posted, which I was open to debating while taking a new look at what you had. Instead it appears you too are trying to cling to the fourth grade level win/loss theory which is not worth the time or effort.

 

I really worry for Lin's mental health

 

Just for the record, win/loss theory isn't fourth grade level. It's a common business model in which result matters more than quality. Hence flappy bird phenomena which was recently in many business event talkshows and articles. If you are going to ignore that because it's "fourth grade level" (which it isn't), then you are missing out on a huge part of the statistics.

 

If you want to compare players, you should use PLAYER stats, not TEAM stats (i.e. wins and losses).

If you want to compare who should be starting, you should use the stats of that given starting rotation and how it changes with Lin or Beverley (i.e. exactly what Clutch posted in his article).

I would like to see those stats updated and we can analyze what's changed since then.