Well, I have had openly gay relatives, co workers, employees, friends, so if I played professional sports, why not? What I dislike is the "Jason Collins Phenomena" where the "celebrations" never end. The awards banquets, the parades, the media specials go on for months. Presidents congratulate, Ex-Presidents congratulate, it won't stop. The words "courage" and "hero" are used more than in reference to all the nation's veterans throughout our history. It is a sexual preference, it is a sport: no one saved school children from a fire, no one rescued a small town from a natural disaster, can we put things in a measure of perspective and move on. Enough already.
I'm not too comfortable being naked in front of anybody, so having a homosexual in the shower with me really isn't any worse than having a heterosexual in the shower with me. So, I guess insofar as I'm comfortable being teammates with anyone at all, I'm comfortable with gay teammates. I'll shower when I get home.
I don't feel comfortable getting naked or seeing other men naked whether or not they are homosexual. I did play sports, but there really wasn't that much nudity in my high school locker room
How difficult is this to understand? If one homo is in a shower with 10 hetro men, should the hetro men be open minded if the homo is staring them down? If one hetro male is in a shower with 10 hetro females, should the hetro females be open minded if the male is staring them down? You're creating a double standard just for the sake of being argumentative. Its completely ok for the hetro women to be uncomfortable, but if the hetro males are uncomfortable, then they are just bigots? The correct answer is as long as the individual, regardless of circumstance, can restrain themselves, then there should be no fear. Where the gay community has lost me (albiet this is a minority) is the lack of understanding between being "open" vs flaunting.
A lot of the titillation of nudity is lost when it becomes a common reality. A lot of cultures don't regard nudity as shocking. There's not a lot of sexual titillation on nude beaches, not a lot of boners or propositions. http://www.japantoday.com/category/opinions/view/why-japanese-people-are-comfortable-with-nakedness
I don't know where you are getting this idea that the celebrations never end or that they are referred to as "hero" more than veterans. Jason Collins wasn't talked about much after a week or so. For that matter no team picked him up so it's not like he was awarded for coming up. As far as courage consider that many are saying this will hurt Michael Sam's draft position and that even his dad is struggling over this. I don't know how much time you have spent actually talking to gay people about what it took for them to come out. For most it isn't that easy of a decision. The feeling I get from many of you is that you feel that being gay is without repercussions but for many it causes a lot of strain with family and friends and given that many states still have laws that allow discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation it isn't without consequence.
I addressed this in the other thread. Sexual violence is much much more often men on women versus men. According to stats about 1 out of 6 women have been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime. Only 1 out of 33 men have. Only 1 out of every 10 rapes are male on male. https://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims Further rape as a crime of violence is only really possible when there is unequal strength for the most part men are stronger than women so the strength factor isn't much of an issue especially among people like football players. There is no double standard when percentage wise a woman has a much higher probability of getting raped by a man than a man has by another man. Honestly it seems like many here are basing their arguments on prison movies where they be rapin everyone in the showers. As I've said I've showered with gay teammates and whether many of you realize it or not you probably have too. Nothing remotely sexual has happened. In fact in my own experience I've heard more suggestive talk and what could be construed as sexual behavior in locker rooms among declared straight men than I have from openly homosexual men. And that is for the most part the case but from the women standpoint you cannot ignore the fact that there is very sound reason for women to be more worried about men than for men to be worried about other men. And do you feel that Michael Sam is flaunting?
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I think its irrational to be afraid of getting harassed, raped, or molested by a gay guy in the locker room. He's just another guy that's playing sports with you. Treat him well and he'll treat you well. He can still be a part of the brotherhood of sports.
The Jason Collins celebrations went on for months, reported all over the web. The word "hero" was used extensively. I don't know if all those reports are still up somewhere, but I remember thinking how ridiculous it was. I understand what the gay political machine is trying to do and there is some degree of justification, but they take it over the top. Then the media picks it up and drives into the ground. I think it is a turn off to most people. O.K., you are gay, live your life; a person is more than just their sexual preferences. I don't understand why it becomes ones' master status. I am heterosexual, but I am about ten or so other things that are more important.
I am not sure if anyone is basing this off prison movies. Rape in prison movies is not about homosexuality, as much as its about getting off or dominance (rape). Its pretty common for straight guys in prison to have sexual experiences simply because they want to get off. Prison is a completely different subject. The broader point is that men are much more aggressive. This is why a singular man will not be as intimidated by showering with a group of other women, even if they are beastly. Now the moment they start harassing them, yes, he will be. As I stated, it comes down to restraint. If its sexual harassment for a guy to stare at a womans rack in the office, then the same would apply with a gay guy in the shower. I have no idea who Michael Sam is. Being open about your sexuality is one thing. A person shouldn't feel ashamed or feel like they need to hide it. Constantly stating it or reminding or the whole "gay pride" thing is just annoying.
We're going to have to agree to disagree because I don't recall Jason Collins stories going on for months. It seemed like it was big news for a week or so and then it died down until now when for understandable reasons his name is back in the news. Anyway if Jason Collins was made out to be such a hero and the gay political machine was so revved up why hasn't he played a professional game since even in the D league? Or for that matter why hasn't the NBA or some team given him a public services contract to capitalize on his fame? Except heterosexuality hasn't been considered a stigma and other than monks I doubt anyone has put their career prospects at risk because they came out as heterosexual.
Then why all the worry about that gay guys in showers? Why all the hand wringing about guys sticking their business up each other butts? The argument is that that the women will be intimidated by the man not the other way around is why we have opposite gender locker rooms. Of course sexual harassment laws should apply evenly. Another reason why people shouldn't worry about gays in the shower. So far he's said it once and he has said he is doing so to get the issue out of the open rather than have it bleed out in rumors. I don't see how that is over the top.
I remember when being gay was a significant social stigma, in the 50's and 60's; however, even then gay people made significant inroads into a wide variety of vocations and professions. In fact, it is something of a stereotype, but most gays that I know or have known are quite financially successful. (Marin county near San Francisco used to be a gay colony and the richest per capita income county in the U.S.) As an employer in the past, I remember one of my people (professionals with several degrees) "came out." I told him that we all knew he was gay, and had known for his entire tenure. He was very upset, and wanted to know how. Yes, there always was and always will be neanderthals out there who hate various groups, but during my entire lifetime, most people have a "live and let live" attitude. I think that certain parts of the gay community will not stop maybe never stop crusading. It has really been over for a long time in the American society. Equal employment, benefits, etc. are no longer an issue. Civil equality has really been obtained and social equality is not advanced by pounding people into submission. Also, if more posters in D&D were like you, I would come here more often. I appreciate your even temperament and courteous responses.
This is true in a lot of industries - and you don't see the gay rights movement "crusading" about office jobs, etc. But the NFL? GMs have openly stated that this will likely affect his draft position, and therefore his earning potential. So quite clearly, it still affects "equal employment" in some areas. As for benefits, the federal government just granted a whole slew of benefits this week - it's not like this is a long-settled thing. http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/08/politics/holder-same-sex-marriage-rights/ The move impacts how millions of Americans interact with the federal government, including bankruptcy cases, prison visitation rights, survivor benefits for police officers and firefighters killed on the job, and the legal right to refuse to testify to incriminate a spouse. This all didn't exist as of 4 days ago. It's not been over for a "long time".
You're jumping to conclusions and assuming my point of view. Ive shared a bed with gay people (in a non sexual way). I am not put off by someones sexuality. I am put off when they hit on me and Ive made it clear I am straight or not interested. The same goes for women too. Please quote me where I have stated it was over the top? I stated I did not know his story or circumstances. Its a safe bridge to assume that me not knowing the story, I can't form an opinion.
