Is it too late? Have teams ever unretired numbers to install them into a Ring of Honor type achievement?
His number was retired because he died of cancer the year before. That's true of Don Wilson as well who died before the 1975 season.
The fact that he was still universally panned in his managerial skills, and hasn't sniffed a job since, diminishes his managerial effect on having his number retired.
And that was mostly my point... that early on, this franchise seemed overly eager to retire #'s simply because these guys were the best to play on the team to that point... not some of the greatest players ever. Also, they don't have as long of a history... for which you inevitably stumble upon HOF players simply due to how long you've been in existence. And now the problem is that any player who exceeds those previous retired players accomplishments they become no-brainers to get their number retired... and there's no way to "reset" the qualifications now that the baseline has already been established. Oswalt and Berkman "should" get their numbers retired on this team (maybe not so for others)... and if Correa/Appel/Rodon/Springer all live up to expectations, this franchise is going to run out of numbers.
Big difference is, Don Wilson was an all-star, who pitched 9 seasons for us (his entire career), and was still in his prime. So at least he made some sense.
Exactly. Although other franchises (not necessarily baseball) have retired numbers of players tragically killed or died suddenly.
The Astros don't have an excessive amount of retired numbers. And every top prospect isn't going to live up to your expectations, if your expectation is Oswalt / Berkman level production. Those guys were in the MVP / Cy Young conversation in their primes.
If they retire Berkman/Oswalt, they'll have the third most in all of baseball (behind the Yankees and Cardinals)... for a team that's only just over 50 years old, and never won a World Series. And yes, I know that Roy/Lance are worthy of it, which spurred my entire participation in this thread... especially when you consider the standards they used for the other players jerseys they retired. The main point was that they retired a lot of numbers that probably didn't need to be retired. And yes, I was being sarcastic when I mentioned every other prospect will work out and need their number retired, and the Astros will run out of numbers. (but its a good problem to have if they feel the need to )
count me in the "too many numbers retired" crowd, and I would retire neither of these two. wouldn't even think about it twice. there are hall of famers whose numbers are not retired, and we want to retire the likes of Roy Oswalt. One of my favorites for sure, but decidedly no on a jersey retirement. I would retire Wynn, Ryan, JR Richard, Bagwell, and Biggio. And I could maybe be talked into Dierker. But as others have said, they've already set the bar too low, so what do you do? I'd be more inclined to "snub" guys by raising the bar now than to run out of numbers. The possibility of this franchise retiring more jerseys than the likes of the Dodgers is just ridiculous.
I think if JR gets it, then so should Oswalt. Richard pitched 10 solid seasons and was a fine pitcher... but so did Oswalt. Oswalt was one of the most winning pitchers of his decade (all with the Astros) and did so with respectable numbers. Richard could have the same said about him. I frankly think both should either be retired or neither, and I think neither the more I think about it...
And yet you'd retire a number (Richard's) that the organization that "set the bar too low" hasn't decided to do so yet. I don't think they should retire Ryan's number without retiring Oswalt's... and that's taking into account "raised" expectations. He basically outranks Ryan in every category except K's and ERA (which Roy had locked up till he struggle in his second to last year here). Also, Roy pitched his entire Astros career at MMP (and many other "hitter" friendly parks in the division/league) vs. Nolan and the Astrodome.
It has never, ever made sense to me. I hear you. But Nolan set all-time records and recorded a no-hitter and a bunch of one-hitters while here. It seems his legacy for some reason looms larger than Roy O. That said, one could talk me out of Ryan before I could be talked into Oswalt.
Roy Oswalt is the greatest pitcher in Astros history, and it's really not close. They certainly have retired too many numbers, but these 2 are more deserving than all the current retirees except Biggio and Bagwell.
Sure, and Oswalt was a stud from day 1 of his promotion, a home-grown product, a perennial cy-young contender, and eventual LCS MVP. In the end, Roy pitched more games/innings as an Astros than Nolan did. Part of it could be the era one watched these people (formative years vs. adult years), and looking at their careers as a whole vs. their time with the Astros. Nolan's local roots also likely play a role in his favoritism amongst Astros lifers... when in reality, he pitched more years/innings elsewhere than he did in Houston.
Lance Berkman is gonna get HOF votes, won't get in, but some of you are talking like Lance was just good by "Astro standards" when realistically most teams in the league would consider retiring his jersey. He played over 10 seasons and was a perennial stud. Not to mention a big postseason performer. I'd be curious to see how many players have hit 300 HR, 1000 RBI's and 1000 runs for one team and not had their numbers retired? Oswalt was better than Nolan Ryan, I know this might come as blasphemy to some of you, but it's a fact. 3.24 ERA in juiced ball era MMP>>> 3.13 ERA in low scoring 80's Astrodome
Nolan Ryan and JR Richard disagree. Both had lower ERAs while with the Astros. Oswalt had 2 years with over 200 Ks for Houston, Ryan had 5. Richard had 2 years with over 300 Ks. You can certainly argue that Oswalt is the greatest Astros' pitcher, but to say it's really not close just isn't true.
