Where would you rank Manu Ginobili in the list of all time SG's?

I'm not sure why your cut off is "in the last 20 years", but without that, by your criteria, the guy at the top of the list would be Sam Jones.

 

Do you even basketball bro?

 

I made the cut in the 20 years, because I want to give a opinion around the players that I really see playing.
In my opinion Wade a and Allen can compet with manu for the third placen but manu international sucess put him ahead.
Manu play with duncan and parker
Allen with garnett pearce and rondo
Wade with shaq

Nobody wins alone, that is not a good point
Players like Tmac or Iverson are probably more gifted, but Manu is clutch, has a winner mentalitly and high IQ.

And in his prime I choose him over Parker 100 times

 

Manu Ginobili, to me, is at the very top of the all-time list of greatest role players.

I cannot consider him as an all-time great when he is only asked to play about 27 MPG over his entire career, yet still barely averages 65 games played per season … THAT is the definition of a role player, no matter how good he is in that role.

I understand that he sacrificed personal stats to come off the bench, which was a huge part in the Spurs winning 3 rings during his prime.
But I cannot ignore the fact that he was always the 3rd best player on those teams. He had the good fortune to play for one of the top 5 head coaches in NBA history, alongside probably the greatest PF of all time, and an MVP candidate at PG. When Duncan’s decline began 3-4 years ago, it was Parker, not Manu, who took the next step to become the Spurs best player and keep them among the elite.

FYI … basketball reference has him closest in similarity to Kevin Johnson, which sounds about right. Not sure where I’d rank KJ all-time, but I can come up with a list of SG’s whose prime I’d rather have on my team than Manu’s.

Not saying in a different situation that Manu couldn’t have put up similar stats to many of these guys, but I also feel that any of these guys (in their prime), plugged in alongside Duncan and Parker on those Spurs teams, would have won 3 rings like Manu did. In many cases, replacing him with one of the guys on my top 20 list probably would have resulted in a better Spurs team.

I found a pretty good list here with most of these guys’ career accomplishments: http://www.complex.com/sports/2013/06/the-greatest-shooting-guards-in-nba-history/michael-jordan

Manu Ginobili
Career stats: 15.9 PPG 3.9 RPG 4.0 APG 1.5 SPG
Career accomplishments: 2x All-Star, 2x All-NBA, 1x Sixth Man of the Year, 3x Champion

I’m not going to bother ranking guys like West or Hal Greer, since I never saw them play. Instead I’m just going to rank him among those that played in the past 30 years or so. In other words, Manu’s contemporaries, of which I have already found 20 I would rather have on my team than Ginobili.

My Top SG List:

1: MJ – Enough said
Career stats: 30.1 PPG 6.2 RPG 5.3 APG 2.3 SPG
Career accomplishments: 14x All-Star, 1985 Rookie of the Year, 1985 All-Rookie, 11x All-NBA, 9x All-Defense, 1x Defensive Player of the Year, 5x MVP, 6x Champion, 6x Finals MVP, Member of the Hall of Fame

2: Kobe – Last 2 rings solidified him as the second-best all-time for me
Career stats: 25.5 PPG 5.3 RPG 4.8 APG 1.5 SPG
Career accomplishments: 1997 All-Rookie, 15x All-Star, 1x MVP, 15x All-NBA, 12x All-Defense, 5x Champion, 2x Finals MVP

3: Wade – By the time he’s finished, he may match Kobe or MJ in rings, and he won the first as best player on his team (fat Shaq was along for the ride)
Career stats: 24.7 PPG 5.1 RPG 6.1 APG 1.8 SPG 1.0 BPG
Career accomplishments: 2004 All-Rookie, 9x All-Star, 8x All-NBA, 3x All-Defense, 2x Champion, 1x Finals MVP

4: Glyde – Couldn’t beat Jordan head-to-head, but was still 2nd best SG of 80’s and 90’s
Career stats: 20.4 PPG 6.1 RPG 5.6 APG 2.0 SPG
Career accomplishments: 10x All-Star, 5x All-NBA, 1x Champion, Member of the Hall of Fame

5: Iverson – Carried his team to only 1 Finals loss, but if Manu had half his toughness he’d be a HoF lock … the most unstoppable perimeter offensive force in the league between the primes of MJ and Kobe
Career stats: 26.7 PPG 3.7 RPG 6.2 APG 2.2 SPG
Career accomplishments: 1997 Rookie of the Year, 1997 All-Rookie, 11x All-Star, 7x All-NBA

6: Tmac – A shame that laziness ruined the end, but in his prime, Tracy was the Durant to Kobe’s LeBron as his chief rival for best wing player in the league, and a top 10 overall player in the league for almost a decade
Career stats: 19.6 PPG 5.6 RPG 4.4 APG 1.2 SPG 0.9 BPG
Career accomplishments: 2001 Most Improved Player, 7x All-Star, 7x All-NBA

7: Vinsanity – Very similar career to his cousin Tmac, Vince was right there with Kobe, McGrady and Iverson as the elite at his position before becoming a role player later on
Career stats: 20.8 PPG 5.0 RPG 3.8 APG 1.1 SPG
Career accomplishments: 1999 Rookie of the Year, 1999 All-Rookie, 8x All-Star, 2x All-NBA

8: Ray Allen – Jesus was never quite elite, but might be the best shooter ever, and he was always underrated as a penetrator and playmaker
Career stats: 19.4 PPG 4.1 RPG 3.4 APG 1.1 SPG
Career accomplishments: 1997 All-Rookie, 10x All-Star, 2x All-NBA, 1x Champion

9: Reggie Miller – Very similar to Allen, but less diverse offensive game … one of the most clutch playoff performers of all-time
Career stats: 18.2 PPG 3.0 RPG 3.0 APG 1.1 SPG
Career accomplishments: 5x All-Star, 3x All-NBA, Member of the Hall of Fame

10: Joe Dumars – Played similar role on Pistons to Manu’s on Spurs, but was far more durable, an elite defender, and won a Finals MVP
Career stats: 16.1 PPG 2.2 RPG 4.5 APG 0.9 SPG
Career accomplishments: 1986 All-Rookie, 6x All-Star, 3x All-NBA, 5x All-Defense, 1x Finals MVP, 2x Champion, Member of the Hall of Fame

11: Mitch Richmond – In the early 90’s, he took a backseat to no one but MJ and Clyde … vastly underrated and anonymous, but great all-around player and unstoppable scorer whose career was wasted on terrible teams
Career stats: 21.0 PPG 3.9 RPG 3.5 APG 1.2 SPG
Career accomplishments: 1989 Rookie of the Year, 1989 All-Rookie, 6x All-Star, 5x All-NBA, 1x Champion

12: Sprewell – Remembered more now for his shoes, rims, and off-court controversy, Spree was an elite athlete who could dominate as a slasher, distributor, or lock-down defender
Career stats: 18.3 PPG 4.1 RPG 4.0 APG 1.4 SPG
Career accomplishments: 1993 All-Rookie, 4x All-Star, 1x All-NBA, 1x All-Defense

13: Stackhouse – Dynamic scorer early on for horrible teams, he has followed Vince down the bench as a role player, but in his prime, a clear go-to scorer, something Manu could never claim
Career stats: 16.9 PPG 3.2 RPG 3.3 APG 0.9 SPG
Career accomplishments: 1996 All-Rookie, 2x All-Star

14: Allan Houston – Another guy who was derailed by injuries late, but as a shooter, only Allen and Reggie could compete in the late 90’s
Career Stats: 17.3 PPG 2.9 RPG 2.4 APG
Career Accomplishments: 2x All-Star

15: Eddie Jones – Much like Sprewell, his athleticism allowed him to do almost anything on the court, and if Kobe never comes along, he might have been the guy to team with Shaq for those 3 rings
Career Stats: 14.8 PPG 4.0 RPG 2.9 APG 1.7 SPG
Career Accomplishments: 3x All-Star, 1995 All-Rookie, 3x All-Defense, 1x All-NBA

16: James Harden – Just getting started, but as the reigning best SG in the entire league, he’s already done something Manu never did … unlike Manu, he was much better than a 3rd banana, and now out of Durant/Westbrook’s shadow, he’s trying to get a ring on his own with Dwight
Career Stats: 17.1 PPG 3.9 RPG 3.6 APG 1.3 SPG
Career Accomplishments: 2x All-Star, 2009 All-Rookie, 1x All-NBA

17: Brandon Roy – Another tragic injury case, but plug him in for Ginobili, and the Spurs don’t miss a beat
Career Stats: 18.8 PPG 4.3 RPG 4.7 APG 1.0 SPG
Career Accomplishments: 3x All-Star, 2007 ROY, 2007 All-Rookie, 2x All-NBA

18: Joe Johnson – Could never carry the Hawks beyond 1st round, but very smooth, complete offensive player, best-suited to support role as 3rd best player like what he would have been on the Spurs
Career Stats: 17.5 PPG 4.1 RPG 4.3 APG 0.9 SPG
Career Accomplishments: 6x All-Star, 2002 All-Rookie, 1x All-NBA

19: Michael Finley – All-around dynamo and ironman overshadowed by Dirk and Nash in Dallas, but a great player
Career Stats: 15.7 PPG 4.4 RPG 2.9 APG 0.9 SPG
Career Accomplishments: 2x All-Star, 1996 All-Rookie

20: Andre Iguodala – This generation’s Eddie Jones, he is every bit the do-it-all wing player Ginobili is, but with elite athleticism
Career Stats: 14.8 PPG 5.7 RPG 4.9 APG 1.7 SPG
Career Accomplishments: 1x All-Star, 2005 All-Rookie, 1x All-Defense

 

you got no idea of bb. How can u even try to rate players like iguodala, joe johnson, finley, roy, harden, eddie jones ahead of ginobili. They guy is a winner in every level he compited.
He lead kinder to euroleague and italian tittle. He led argentina national team to gold medal, and when he came to san antonio he accepted his role, and still carried the team on the 2005 finals ( yeah he was better than duncan that series). You guys forget that the notion that the spurs werent only tim duncan team begin on the 2007 playoffs, with duncan injuries and losing some step. But until them, it was all duncan.
Ginobili is a lot better than parker, and was for years, but parker is best now, only coz he is younger.

 

Although there are flaws with just looking at WS, there's nothing wrong with his DWS rate being higher; the conclusion you made is a red herring. If you take DWS/MP, it shows he's a generated more wins per than Kobe and a marginally more than Bowen (SAS only years) per minute, defensively, in both regular and post season. That means he generated more defensive wins with his time on the court compared to Bowen/Kobe and their time on the court - nothing more, nothing less. Maybe Manu was guarding more bench players or second string guys or facing second string offenses... he generated more defensive wins doing it and you can't conclude who is a straight up better defender in DWS.

I'll even bite the herring and say that it's not hard to believe that Manu is a better career defender than Kobe(lol? why is he brought up as a defensive comparison) and even Bowen. In his early-mid career, Manu was a defensive pest like no other. Moreover, people forget that Bowen started off slow and regressed faster in SAS than Manu.

 

No argument about his strong history of winning ... but the same argument has been made over and over for Robert Horry

Does that make Horry a better player than Manu, since he has 6-7 rings and Ginobili only has 3?

My point is that winning 3 rings as the CLEAR 3rd option is not as impressive as proving yourself worthy of being the BEST player on a consistent playoff team that never wins a ring

To me, watching Drexler lose to Magic and MJ as the leader of the Blazers was far more impressive than watching Manu win on a team built around Duncan and Parker

If he was such a great individual player, he would have gone the route of Harden ... leaving the bench of a great team to go out on his own and compete for a ring as the lead dog on his own team

We all know $ talks in pro sports, and if he was worthy of it (like Harden), some team would have come along (like the Rockets) to offer him the type of max-level contract that Ginobili couldn't have turned down, and the Spurs couldn't have afforded to match

We never got to see if Manu could do this, but judging from the toll his 27 MPG took on his body, it is fair to assume he would have done no better on his own than Brandon Roy, Tmac or Allan Houston ... great players whose genetics and/or work habits created bodies that couldn't stand up to the grind of carrying a team to the Finals year after year

Durability matters, and at only 27 MPG, Ginobili's history of missing tons of games makes it really hard for me to give him much more credit for those 3 rings than I would give Horry for his 6 or 7

Those rings belong to Hakeem & Clyde, Shaq & Kobe, Duncan & Parker ... truly great, elite, HoF players

While certainly important, Manu and Horry were more along for the ride than powering it

That's why, to me, both are among the all-time great ROLE players ... not all-time GREATS

 

jesus, are you really comparing manu to robery horry? I can see your points about durability but you lost me with that comparison.

i had this same conversation with my boy about robert horry and his 6 rings. Horry was def clutch and while better, i think horrys closer to steve kerr(who had 5 rings too) than to manu.

 

behind t-mac

 

No not at all ... Ginobili's a much better player with a much better career than Horry
I do think Manu could have been the star of his own team, unlike Robert

My point was that Ginobili's Bobcats (or anything but Spurs) would have a winning% very similar to Stackhouse's Pistons, Tmac's Magic, JJohnson's Hawks, MRichmond's Kings, Roy's Blazers, or Iggy's Sixers

The Spurs have been elite and dynastic for 15 years because:
A - Duncan the best PF ever
B - Pop a top 5 head coach in NBA history
C - Parker a (current) top 5 PG and MVP candidate

Manu's contribution to those teams could have been easily replicated by the other shooting guards on my list, and in many cases, the Spurs might have even been better with a SG like Sprewell, Finley, or even Eddie Jones giving them a consistent 35 MPG over a consistent 80 games per season as the Spurs 3rd option

Do you notice how many nobodies become very successful role players in the Spurs system (Danny Green, Stephen Jackson, Kawhi Leonard, Bruce Bowen, Malik Rose, Devin Brown, Gary Neal, etc...)?
Is this a coincidence, or evidence to how easy it is for even average NBA players to become vital contributors to championship teams?
Certainly you noticed how Robinson, Duncan and Pop won a ring together years before Ginobili even played a game in the NBA?

Or let me ask you this another way ... what is the difference between Ginobili's career and that of Vinnie Johnson?
The Microwave was the dynamic bench scoring guard for 2 championship teams built around 2 clearly-superior HoFamers (Isiah and Dumars)
Is anyone listing him among the greatest SG's of all time?
Of course not, because it sounds ridiculous, as it should

My point is that Manu is more Vinnie Johnson than he is Horry or Kerr ... a wonderful role player on multiple championship teams ... nothing less, and certainly nothing more

The Spurs were the Spurs long before he got there, and they have continued to be among the elite while Manu's career entered it's twilight
Last year's Finals showed that it's debatable if he's even the Spurs best wing player anymore, as it was The Danny Green Show for much of the playoffs ... does that mean Danny Green has now joined Manu as an all-time great SG?!?

Hell I would rather have Drazen Petrovic in his prime over Ginobili
Comparing him to guys like Harden, Ray Allen (which SG was it that hit that clinching shot in the Finals last year?), Mitch Richmond or Reggie Miller is more than a little insulting to those guys and what they accomplished

 

Parker was not better player than Ginobili, also very poor playoff performer, last years playoffs were the best Parker had in his career and were still far from great. Career 51.6 TS% in playoffs compared to 55.1 TS% in the regular season.

Spurs success was Duncan and then Ginobili as a second fiddle, Parker and Popovich were mostly just beneficiary and probably cost more titles than help them win.

Ranking Harden higher than Ginobili and saying he was better 3rd option is just stupid, Manu was much better player in his prime than Harden right now so to use that argument to discredit Manu is weird, Ginobili could have his own team and average 25/6/6, would that make him better player? No and he dominated as a man pre-NBA and in international game.

http://archive.fiba.com/pages/eng/f...ympic_Games_Tournament_for_Men/statistic.html

 

Two really good seasons, nothing more ... most of the players I mentioned had several all-star apperance or had at least 4-5 all-star quality seasons.

 

Look, I'm a huge Ginobili booster. The guy is one of my absolute favorites to watch. But Bernard King took 15 years to get into the Hall of Fame because of his "injury-shortened career" and King played 40% more career minutes than Ginobili would have if he retired today.

I would go in the range of 10-12th best shooting guard of all time. Bonus points for knowing what his role was. You win way more rings as an all-time great 2.5th banana than as an underpowered first option. Doesn't mean it's easy to make that adjustment or find the right fit, or all of those shot-jacking ringless swingmen from the turn of the century (Stackhouse, Houston, Joe Johnson, etc) would have done so. Ginobili figured it out, and I think his international play qualifies him as a top 5 most successful shooting guard in world basketball history, but I base rankings on NBA accomplishments, not national team play.

With all due respect, don't be stupid.

 

When you say the Spurs success is mostly due to Duncan, I completely agree, but to give Ginobili more credit than Pop or Parker?
Ridiculous
Popovich is the NBA's Bill Belichick ... no one currently in his profession has had a longer run of consistent excellence
Just like Bill has Brady, Pop has Duncan ... Manu is more like Vince Wilfork
You are aware that Duncan and Pop won a title in 99 without Manu, correct?

I also cannot agree that Parker was/is/will always be an inferior player, although I think he is also overrated
He has finished in the top 10 of MVP voting 4 times (06, 09, 12, 13)
Manu? ... just one top 10 finish (2011)
He is also a 6x All-Star and 3x All-NBA player
Manu? ... 2x AS and 2x ANBA
By poor playoff performer, are you referencing his 2007 NBA Finals MVP award?
Manu doesn't have one, but he does have a nifty 6th-man trophy, same as Barbosa, Corliss Williamson, Aaron McKie and Darrel Armstrong

Oh and BTW ... Ginobili has peaked and begun to decline, while Parker still appears to be getting better
Last year, while Manu was busy becoming the 2nd or 3rd best wing player ON HIS OWN TEAM (behind Kawhi and Green), Parker carried the Spurs back to the Finals with his finest season as a top 5 MVP candidate
Shooting? Tony bested Manu in FG%, 3P% and FT% throughout last year's playoffs, while playing almost 1 quarter more per game than Ginobili, and taking almost twice as many shots

Any way you measure it, Parker has had a better career, is currently much more important to the Spurs than Ginobili, and his career looks to still be ascending

And Harden ... ???
I only have 1 statement for you:
JAMES HARDEN IS CURRENTLY THE BEST SG IN THE ENTIRE NBA

Manu Ginobili has never even been in the conversation for that, at any point in his career, and it is STUPID to make any kind of case where he was a better player than Harden is right now
He's already got the same 6th-man award Ginobili does, and he's just getting started building a HoF career as the BEST player on a championship contender

Hell, you can't even make a decent case that Ginobili has ever even been the best player on his own team

 

You present a good argument for Ginobili, but your argument is what I hate most about debates that involve team sports and comparing individuals. If your team wins more rings or playoff games, you are somehow better than those who don't or won less, especially on inferior teams on franchise. How to hell is someone supposed to win a title playing for organizations as incompetent as the Detroit Lions, Cleveland Cavaliers, or the LA Clippers, pre-2005? Throwing an all-star, superstar, or talented rookie on a bad team is somehow supposed to make a championship squad out of mediocre franchise.

It's hard for me to understand.

For the posters who have Ginobili rated over West, Gervin, and even modern players, like D-Wade, Iverson, T-Mac, and etc. Is why these arguments are not even worth debating on a fan forum. Comparing a very good SG who is a great 6th man to players who have spent a better part of their careers carrying mediocre teams, while annually being up for MVP awards. It's almost why I even pause for second in the "Peyton Maning" arguments, where some fans actually think Eli is a better QB, because he has Super Bowls, yet has missed the playoffs five times in his career; lead the league in interception, three times; and only four seasons where he has thrown for 15 or less ints. I know you are "supposed to win the game," but let's keep things in context. How does a player with 3 wings beat out players who have won multiple MVPs or finished in the league's top 5-10 players, at least 6 times?

 

First off, Ray Allen is a 2x champion. Don't disrespect Jesus.

Second, Iverson is a PG. Or if you are going to call him an SG, then you may as well put Curry, Arenas, Rose, and a whole host of other hybrid guards ahead of Ginobili too since they all meet your rather one-dimensional criteria.

Third Harden's inclusion on your list shows how much we live in the moment. Why not put Monta Ellis on there too? Plenty of guys have had one or two good seasons but longevity has to count for something. I mean, Kobe's entire ranking is based on his career accomplishments since he's never been the best player in the league for a single season. You seriously have Harden > Ginobili, are you f'in kidding me?

 

Ray Allen , Reggie Miller are top shooting guards. Some of you guys are ridiculous. Also, Manu probably doesn't make top 10.

 

I'll say it again ...
HARDEN IS THE BEST SG IN THE NBA RIGHT NOW
You could NEVER say that about Ginobili, and certainly not about Monta Ellis

You can call it 'living in the moment', but I don't care if Harden is just getting started while Manu is winding down
Harden could become Tmac 2.0 and shut it down at 30, and I would still rather have him for 5-7 years instead of 15 from Ginobili, just like I still think the original Tmac is/was/will always be a better player than Manu

For an extended run (5+ yrs) Tmac was a top 10 overall player and top 2-3 at his position ... in other words the exact type of player you MUST have to realistically think about a ring

Harden is there now, and I see no reason why he will suddenly regress over the next 4-5 yrs
I don't care if he hasn't done it yet ... he's still better RIGHT NOW

Just as I have no problem saying Anthony Davis is a better PF than Chris Bosh ...
Or Paul George is a better SF than Paul Pierce ...
Just because they haven't done it for 10 years already doesn't mean it isn't true RIGHT NOW that those players are better NOW than their older couterparts ever where, even at their respective peaks

 

He's a lot better defender than Kobe. It's not even close.

 

This is that argument where people really have to find a balance between statistics and actuality. Ginobili was a good defender, but to even think he was in the same league as Bruce Bowen is "awfully" silly, especially when more times than not the Spurs would not put Manu on the other teams best offensive player. I should even throw in how Ginobili is often matched up against 2nd stringers, given how his minutes are handled.