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Rockets Shot Selection: Amateur Study of the '3 & Paint pts' Strategy

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by srrm, Jan 25, 2014.

  1. markusbrutus

    markusbrutus Member

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    well, it maybe that we are the typical offense in that sometimes we'll play good, and sometimes we'll play bad.

    but i'm eager to see how mchale adjusts to teams in the playoffs. as it is what would be needed of him as a coach.

    the 2nd memphis game recently should have been a good game for him to show that he could make some coaching adjustments, but hey he just stayed with the same gameplan he had the night earlier. the results showed it.

    on another note, is there a stat somewhere where we could see how many long rebounds the opponent got off after we threw a three ball? how many led to points after? How many times teams initiated to run after a long rebound after our missed three?

    Been searching for that but couldn't find it. :(
     
  2. WinkFan

    WinkFan Member

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    The problem with this analysis is that it assumes there is an effective alternative if we can't score inside. If the Rockets try to rely on jump shots to win games, they will lose, regardless of whether the shots are 2s or 3s.
     
  3. srrm

    srrm Member

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    Their offense strategy is definitely not typical since no other team relies on such a high volume and fraction of 3s&Paint shots. Our style works best against mediocre to worse defensive teams. We haven't been able to implement our style against better defensive teams. I think that is a clear defect to the offense. If the Rockets are so bent on a particular strategy, I would want it to work against the majority of teams, but particularly against teams we'll face in the playoffs (the ones that happen to play better defense).

    We would definitely have a better record if we were better defensively. I guess it takes longer to learn to play high-level defense.
     
  4. meh

    meh Member

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    Can you look at other teams to see if they're just as good against top defenses as they are against mediocre ones?

    Common sense would indicate what you propose would be the same with any offense. Do the Clippers score as much on the Pacers of the world as much as they do on teams like the Rockets?
     
  5. srrm

    srrm Member

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    My point is not that they can't make enough off 3s &Paint. It's that the Rockets are not even able to take enough those shots!

    My cutoff for games where the Rockets achieve their shot goal is that 85% of shots attempted must come as 3s&Paint shots. Against the best D Rating team, they're not even coming close to hitting that mark.

    I don't care if other teams see the same effect against good defense. If the Rockets are choosing a particular strategy, but can't even implement the strategy, then there's something wrong...
     
  6. meh

    meh Member

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    If what you're saying is, "Rockets can't accomplish A, but I don't care if other teams can't do A either. I'm still pissed the Rockets can't accomplish A." From a logic standpoint, isn't this a fallacy? The Rockets don't have magical powers. If something can't be done, then it can't be done. Not much you can do about it.
     
  7. srrm

    srrm Member

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    Meh, it should be obvious that's not what I'm saying. There are a lot of offense strategies played by the different teams in the league. The Rockets have supposedly chosen a strategy that leads to more wins than other offense strategies. If we are losing to the same good defenses CONSISTENTLY that other offenses are too, then what's the point of using the 3s&Paint shots preference as heavily as we do? We may as well just copy any of the other good/more consistent offensive teams's strategy.

    Shouldn't part of the Rockets' aim be to beat good defensive teams? If one strategy is proving to be unusable & unsuccessful, should they continue to use it and be happy with the losing results? We probably need more games to establish it as a valid phenomenon, but the preliminary results are certainly trending that way.

    Edit: instead of typing I don't care, I should have written "I'm not concerned with"
     
    #27 srrm, Jan 28, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2014
  8. srrm

    srrm Member

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    Playing devil's advocate on myself: Here's a plot of games this season with %Shots as 3s&Paint vs Point differential, but the bubble size now shows the relative defensive rating of teams we played.

    [​IMG]

    Good def teams against whom we've won:
    >=85% as 3s&Paint: -
    <85% as 3s&Paint: TOR, CHI, GSWx2, SASx2

    Good def teams against whom we've lost:
    >=85% as 3s&Paint: OKC
    <85% as 3s & Paint: OKC, IND


    relaxing cutoff to 80% as 3s&Paint

    Good def teams against whom we've won:
    >=80% as 3s&Paint: GSW, SAS, CHI, TOR
    <80% as 3s & Paint: GSW, SAS

    Good def teams against whom we've lost:
    >=80% as 3s&Paint: OKC
    <80% as 3s & Paint: OKC, IND

    It's not as dire as I made it out 2/3 posts back.
     
  9. meh

    meh Member

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    I'm not sure how your numbers prove differently. Because none of the results you've shown have made any correlation between Rockets win rate vs. type of offense they run. How can you be certain the Rockets would win more games if had the exact offensive system as, say, the Pacers or the Heat?

    That's why I ask if you can research into such things. Perhaps look at whether the Rockets personnel running the Pacers offense would allow us to win more games.
     
  10. JBar

    JBar Rookie

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    Great job OP. Don't know how hard it would be to do, but I would love to see Figure 2 rearranged so that the X axis didn't follow chronological order of games played but followed the order of games with the lowest percentage of paint/3 point shots combined to games with highest percentage of paint/3 point shots combined. Ideally it would leave everything else the same, including notation of wins and losses.

    Anyway, great post!
     
  11. srrm

    srrm Member

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    Fair enough. I still want to see whether they will win a game against a good defensive team like Indiana, while keeping their style of play. They haven't shown that yet. As for the second part of Rockets running a different offense style, I don't know how to do that... I think it would take too much effort for the reward.

    Thanks, I can do that - I'll try and reply with it tomorrow.
     
  12. meh

    meh Member

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    I don't think we can as long as our defense is this bad. I am of the opinion that you have to be good on both sides of the ball to be a championship caliber team. So I tend not to use stats regarding one side of the ball to determine if we can win games. I personally prefer using both offense and defense.

    Of course, if you can find that there's minimal correlation between defense and win rate, and that winning is mostly a product of offensive showings, I'd be happy to change my opinion.
     
  13. srrm

    srrm Member

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    I think you're missing the point of the thread. No argument that you need a good defense too. The defense's contribution to winning is not being questioned nor is it being evaluated. I'm not saying our offense is more important than good D either.

    The offense we play has been discussed as a remarkable and somewhat novel system, and I wanted to try and evaluate it. The point of this thread is to see how often we stuck to our style of offense and the situations when we do it. That's why the opposition defense is so important to me, and that's why I want to see the Rockets beat Indiana, OKC, CHI, GSW, SAS, while they play their style of basketball. I've defined their style of basketball to be games where they shoot more than 85% of their shots as 3s&Paint shots.

    Sure, there are some games where the defense lets us down or wins it for us (rare from the eye test) but that's a study for another thread on another day. Mostly though, when we have played good defensive teams, we've not played with the 85% shots as 3s&Paint and I want to know if this is going to continue to be the case.
     
  14. meh

    meh Member

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    Then I don't understand why you talk about winning or losing games. If you don't believe offense is the overwhelming reason for winning or losing, then wouldn't it be a false logic to use wins as a measurement of success for our offense?

    In fact, in basketball offense and defense are connected. It's easier to run on teams when you have a defensive rebound vs. taking the ball out of bounds after a made shot, for example. So even offensive output is at least partially attributed to the Rockets defense.

    I think it's great you made those chart. But I just don't see how you can use them to draw the conclusions you draw.

    To do this, wouldn't you need to compare our offense with other offenses in the NBA? If there's no team to compare, how can you achieve any conclusions? If I say the Rockets are 5th in offense, it means they're 5th compared to the 29 other teams. But to reach such a conclusion would mean I have knowledge of what the other 29 teams have accomplished, no? If I were to just tell you the Rockets have an oRtg of 110, can you tell me if that's good or not? Don't you need to see what other teams' oRtg first?
     
    #34 meh, Jan 30, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2014
  15. srrm

    srrm Member

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    I can't say either way if the offense or defense is more important to winning because I'm not studying that. I'm only studying the effect of the offense. And it so happens that there are trends just looking at our offense and the D Rtgs of the opponent, as well as trends with our offense and the games we've won.

    I think I finally understand what you're saying: that the game is too complicated to look at just the offense or just the defense and draw a conclusion about winning or losing. The following rough analogy may help: I have some function f(x,y) that is complicated but I want to see how it behaves with changes in x and y. Because it's complicated, I'm first looking at df/dx and some point later will look at df/dy. I can still draw conclusions about how f changes with x. If you think it has no meaning then I apologize, but I don't know how to convince you otherwise...:confused:. (In the analogy, your point is that x and y depend on each other as well; yes they do, but it's complicated and I have to start looking at it from somewhere.)

    As for comparing with other teams, I can't do that because other teams don't have a similar play style to us. I'm trying to characterize only our play style and see when our offense works and when it doesn't, and if it doesn't I eventually want to figure out why it doesn't. It's a study on the Rockets shot selection. I'm doing it because I feel that the ORtg is falsely hyping our offensive prowess, and looking to see if I can come up with a better evaluation.
     
    #35 srrm, Jan 30, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2014

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