Allow me to introduce you to a brand new concept called context: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=260704
And nobody here said he didn't have flaws, that's borderline straw man. The guy was a terrible free throw shooter, period I don't think anybody here is going to deny that. But he was absolutely monumental at every other aspect of what the center position could do, he changed his style of game several times and each time his dominance was still expressed magnificently no matter what was asked of him. Whether it be shutting down the basket with smothering inside defense, or putting up indefensible volumes of points - heck even leading the league in assists. BTW, in Wilt's time it was 3 to make 2 or 2 to make 1 for free throws. I'm not sticking up for his FT%'s cause they were terrible, they were indeed his one achilles heel. BUT because of the 3 to make 2 and 2 to make 1 rule, the 'impact' he had on the line, was still significant enough that players did not often want to risk hacking him. He always had an extra chance to make a point if he missed once or twice in a row at the line. His playoff 'drop off' is exaggerated by people who don't understand the context which I posted above. He was not a poor playoff performer, he was like most NBA superstars throughout NBA history, his stats did suffer in the playoffs, but not really any more so than many of the other top all time greats. If you don't have guards that know how to feed the post, or you are playing teams that are excellent pressing teams (like say, Boston) you are going to have a harder time as a big man come playoff season. He still was dominant in the playoffs.
1) First, does not answer his atrocious FT% nor your argument of "he doesnt need it" which I questioned. 2) Second, as for scoring, first of all, even in the three years he was a bulk scorer, there was still a significant drop in the playoffs. If you are the most dominant presence in the game and you are not using it for playoffs, you have to question the player's mentality. Regular season was perfectly fine, playoffs not so much? Also the "context" thing, If he was the most dominant player, why was he not the primary scorer in every single game ever played? Why was he the primary scorer in only three of those seasons?!??!?! Something dosnt add up. You are a Wilt worshiper and your agenda is clearly showing.
No one called him a poor playoff performer, but you have to question the drop, not shove it under the rug using "context".
You don't think Wilt was the most dominant player in the playoffs when he was playing in them? Really? Who was more dominant than him? Have you checked his opponents playoff stats? Or are you just concerned with his own playoff stats? He obliterated his opponents in the playoffs. They weren't just tough on him, he was tough on them. Kareem shot something like 59% against the rest of the league in 1971. In the playoffs against Wilt he shot 45%. Wilt defended him better than anyone did not named Nate Thurmond. That includes Hakeem. Nate Thurmond btw, is one of Wilt's NBA Finals opponents. One of the greatest lowpost defenders in NBA history. Wilt using a left hand or right hand doesn't matter, he could score from the left side or right side of the floor. Fingerroll from the right, jumper from the left, if he's in close it's a dunk. He's bigger and more powerful than just about anyone, he doesn't need his left hand. His scoring feats and records prove it, it's not even an issue.
Did you read the context or not? I didn't shove anything under the rug. Summarize the context for me. If you can't, just say so and I'll do my best to personalize the explanation of what I meant by context for you.
Good thing you brought up his defensive presence, because thats probably the first thing I would use show that he was incredible, and something I think a lot of people often overlook. I would not use using scoring feats and records to prove it though. The dilemma is that one one hand you are saying he was the unstoppable and the most dominant scorer yet one the other hand he only has 22ppg to show for his career in the playoffs.
Haha, that is Sonny Hill, if it makes you feel better he didn't intend to just take a cheap shot at Dwight in that interview, if you hear the whole interview you'll hear him talk about how he believes Wilt would have abused just about anyone be it 90's centers including Robinson and Shaq or modern guys like Dwight/Bynum. I only chose to use the clip where he acknowledges Dwight/Bynum because those two guys are current players and for time constraints I couldn't include all his comments. Here's the full interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfHI8BBIWTk
I understand what you are trying to show with your "context". What your '"context" does not answer is how even if you compare regular season stats for each season for the playoffs stats vs regular season for the same season, there is still a drop in each, significantly in some cases. More importantly, there is a drop even in the seasons you say that he was the bulk scorer (when comparing regular season vs playoffs). As for your argument that it is normal for players to have a drop in numbers in playoffs, maybe so. But there are three players I know whose numbers improved in the playoffs when compared to their regular season. One of them is a center, so using the argument that maybe the guards could not get him the ball, is a weak argument, IMO. If you are going to present them as an unstoppable force, their drop in the post season when compared to regular season will be questioned. Here is the baffling part of your breakdown below... Wilt played 24 playoff games as the teams dedicated volume scorer... Wilt played 56 playoff games as a high-post playmaker and balanced defensive/offensive anchor. Wilt played 80 playoff games as defensive anchor and an opportunistic scorer. For a dominant scorer in the post and for someone who does not need a numbers of things as you say, why was he the dedicated volume scorer in such a few of them?? Why was he not establishing himself in every single game? Shaq and Charles spend every single halftime show talking about how Dwight needs to assert himself (I am not comparing Dwight to Wilt in any shape or form, just he philosophy). Why was Wilt not looking to score more in the playoffs?? Was it a coaching decision? If so, what kind of coaching decision was that??? If I have a guy who cant be stopped in the post, I will give him the ball every single time and let the other teams try to stop him. The most dominant guy in the post was averaging 20+ ppg in playoffs for some of his prime seasons. This is just criminal. Here is the conundrum. On one hand you are saying he was the most unstoppable force in the game, yet, on quiet a few occasions his playoff scoring numbers are not dazzling. Was he an underachiever then? Did he lack a killer instinct? I am just not getting the whole picture here.
You still don't seem to understand the 'context' which I provided... The reality is more complex than the summary I'm about to give but here it is in basics. Early in his career (his first 7 seasons) he was a dominant scorer right? That's what boosts his regular season stats. Full 80 game seasons etc scoring incredible amounts of points. Well, he didn't make the playoffs every single season early on, some of his early teams were terrible. Also, when they did play in the playoffs they didn't play as many games in the playoffs as he would eventually play LATE in his career when he WASN'T a scorer. Because the first round of the playoffs early in his career was only a best of 5, and there was no semi-finals round. It was just round 1, round 2, then Finals. He made zero Finals appearances under the role of team-gunner. Even his '64 Finals appearance was under coach Hannum who preached Wilt pass from the post and facilitate to keep teammates hot. Later in his career, the playoffs went from 2 rounds to 3, and became best of 7. By this time Wilt was only an opportunistic scorer and/or defensive specialist. In other words that vast majority of his playoff career was spent NOT focusing on scoring. Look at the link I posted and you'll get far more specific season by season break downs. To say "30ppg vs 22ppg" is a grossly misleading statement given the wide gap in relative games he played as a scorer in the regular season vs playoffs.
If this is true, it is absolutely criminal. The most dominant low post scorer in the history of the game and the "vast majority of his playoff career was spent NOT focusing on scoring." Perhaps if it was, he would have had more rings to his name? This is not a snide remark. I am being honest here.
Is it not possible for you to understand he only focused on scoring incredible volumes of points for about 7 seasons? Do you really think a guy who once averaged 50, was only capable of putting up 24 points (on 68%...) a couple seasons later? Did he suddenly just suck ass at scoring? No, hell no. He stopped attacking the basket the way he used to on his on volition. It wasn't because of a lack of 'killer instinct' (lol at using media hyperbole) or any nonsense like that. He simply wanted to try and do what was best for his teams. When he went to the 76ers the amount of talent he had around him was far greater than when he played for the Warriors. Greer, the 3rd best guard of that era behind Robertson and West, Billy Cunningham, Chet Walker one of the best 1 on 1 iso players from that era, and the imposing 270lb Luke Jackson who used to be the teams center but slid to PF for one very imposing front court. That team was stacked, one of the greatest in history. Wilt was a smart player, he stopped scoring (as much) and started dishing, those teammates could light up opponents now not just from the front court with him and Luke, but also from the backcourt. He started racking up incredible amounts of assists, more so actually than any non-guard in NBA history let alone center. I would say Wilt was still in his prime up until the start of the 1970 season, shortly before he shredded his knee. He changed his role (how many points he'd gun for, how many times he'd try to facilitate, how much emphasis and energy he expelled on defense, etc) several times at the tail end of his prime and for the remainder of his career for that matter but in 1969 he was mostly trying to blend with West and Baylor and his new coach. There was a window where West and Baylor went out on the Lakers and some writer in LA said Wilt 'couldn't score any more'. Wilt put up 2 consecutive 60 point games, one of them 66 points. This is just 1 season before Kareem was in the league, and the two opponents Wilt did this against Kareem's high's were only 41 points against them. Wilt never fit in right in the 1969 Lakers team though, BVBK the coach and Wilt hated each other and BVBK's system was not kind to centers, he wanted Wilt to play outside the lowpost and play up top in the high-post which Wilt felt did not best capitalize his abilities. The start of the 1970 season Kareem was now in the league, and coach BVBK was fired (for not letting Wilt get back in the game during the Finals, which I'm sure you're probably aware of). Under the new coach Wilt actually started that season gunning for what seemed to be another scoring title, averaging about 34ppg and leading the league in scoring (over Kareem, who was now in the league, averaging about 28ppg). After Wilt's injury, he no longer was the same, he lost a lot of lateral mobility in his legs but he still could score in the low post on high efficency. His jump shot appeared to disappear through attrition during his remaining Laker years though. He eventually became a defensive, rebounding, and fast break starting specialist (1972 and 73, ala Bill Russell), and in spite of not doing as much scoring he still was setting records in accuracy, and was a perennial MVP candidate and league leading rebounder. He eventually left the game by choice, after attempting to jump to the ABA, the Lakers filed a lawsuit against him that prohibited him from playing until his LA contract was up (for 1 season). During that time, he just decided he didn't want to play anymore. Wilt got offers to make a come-back in the NBA up until the 1990's. That's how good he was. He could have actually been a part of the Olajuwon/Jordan era, in his early 50's. Not saying he would have been a force in his 50's, but the fact that NBA scouts at the time took him seriously at that age says something profound about him. He was not some scrub his critics would have you believe, he was one of the most awesome players to ever play. Be it playoffs or regular season. Didn't matter that he didn't use his left hand. Didn't matter that he didn't learn fancy post moves that smaller centers depended on. Didn't matter that brought the ball down low to gather before he shot. Nobody could stop him from doing what he did.
It's just how he played, his career is unique, most players play their entire career under 1 role, maybe two. He changed his game dramatically several times. And it isn't reflected in a balanced way in his playoffs vs regular season stats. Anyways, for those that understand when he changed his role and why it isn't a big deal. He was dominant from the start to the finish of his NBA career, regardless of role. Here's his last NBA game ever, full breakdown of his touches and plays: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpTNSLJqaAE Still very dominant.
The career playoff stats are shewed by the fact that in the first half of his career, when he was a dominant scorer (30+ ppg for 6 years, 59-60 to 64-65), in those seasons he logged 47 playoff games, total, averaging over 35 ppg and 27 rpg. The last 7 years of his career his role had changed to scoring less, and in those years he logged 113 playoff games.
Yes you summarized it better than I. The specifics get more complicated because he changed his role many times under many coaches, teams, and systems, but in short yeah he scored more those first 7 years and scored a heck of a lot less his final 7 years. Heck, he actually missed almost an entire regular season in one of his final 7 years but played in the playoffs anyways which skews the numbers even more.
That's exactly it. A guy bigger than Shaq and probably safe to say more athletic than Shaq. Look around the league right now and I don't know that anyone would guard Shaq in his prime all that well. So guarding wilt in his prime....good luck! He'd be the MVP.
I enjoyed your response Cav and thank you for the history for some of us who didn't know much about that era of basketall. However, I think your interpretation of pioneer is limited (my post was only directed at above posts that called out Wilt for being overrated btw). Regarding Wilt, no where did I mention finesse, post skills, or anything else as you focused on in your response. Shaq was also a pioneer. He dominated and changed how the game had to be played. The reality is that sports are largely about athleticism and sheer height, size, speed, or power often change the game, regardless if the player intended or not.
Wilt Chamberlain vs. Nate Thurmond head-to-head: Regular season: Chamberlain: 15.7 ppg Thurmond: 16.6 ppg Playoffs: Chamberlain: 12.5 ppg Thurmond: 15.5 ppg
