ClutchFans Game Thread: Rockets @ Wizards 1/11/2014

I agree... I don't think you should be able to give someone negative reputation if you don't have the balls to identify yourself. Of course now I fully expect someone to anonymously neg rep me just to be an *******. I think you have to have super privileges to give negative rep, though -- I know I can only give positive rep, which is fine by me.

 

Bingo. I agree the best thing for Lin is to let him go. Like a bird held in captivity. He could be utilize in another team. Maybe like the Utah jazz, to play along with Trey Burke And Gordon Hayworth and a new Coach there.

 

Your mindset is the exact reason why so many people are annoyed with Lin fans.

 

Ok. I think Beverley is a better fit with the 2 superstars. H and H.

 

On another note, Jeremy needs to learn the art of flopping. Players are gonna come hard at him if he doesn't learn to draw whistles. That tackle almost knocked him out last night. We have one of the best floppers on our team. Learn and master it from him.

 

To me it's almost the gold standard in detecting a LOF. Do they want Lin to be traded or not? There's very few ROCKETS fans that want him to be traded away, namely because a.) he's actually a very good spark off the bench, and in the ideal setting is a 6MOY candidate in that role; and b.) the market for Lin at this time is Slim Pickens if you know what I mean. We would only be trading him away effectively to get out from underneath the worldwide circus of Linsanity, as if it were enough of a team distraction to be causing our underachieving performance thus far (hint: it's not. we can deal with it like good fans of any other NBA team). Finally, true Rockets fans that are impartial to the discussion are also Lin fans! We just know that he would be better served as a primary rotation player, and top 3 offensive option, on a championship contender rather than the #1 offensive option on a perennial lotto team.

So putting everything together, whenever I read that someone is asking for Lin to be traded away, usually for "whatever we can get for him" or "because he's not being properly used" here, that's my screen to tell me there's a 95% chance I might be reading a post from a LOF. Cross reference it with the date of joining the board and there's your 100% specific test.

 

What's with this true Rockets fans thing? There's no such a thing just as there is no such thing as a LOH. My brother in law was once a true Bulls fan when he lived in Chicago. Now that he is in MN, he also claims he's a true Timberwolves fan.

 

Thanks! And by thanking you it confirms that I'm neck deep in the illuminati conspiracy of clutchfans, right? :grin:

 

That's a nice way of saying you've been a fan from a date before player x joined the team. The Texans experienced this same thing a few years ago when they started getting good. People that had previous never really watched started paying attention. While that's a good thing, it attracts casual fans that may not understand the game or the team. Two years ago during a Texans game I had a fellow fan all up in arms about Schuab not trying to run for a TD late in the Raiders game. That told me either A: He's a long time fan but very, VERY dim about football. Or B: He's a new "bandwagon" fan that doesn't know Schuab very well. Either way those kinds of things can get under the skin of the folks that have been watching for decades.

 

I think only the moderators can neg rep; the people leaving obnoxioius comments leave positive rep. It's happened to me a couple times... very odd.

You don't have to contribute money to the site to be able to give rep. I'm not sure if there is some criteria applied automatically or some moderator has to turn on the function.

 

Funny b/c when I read the trade Lin threads it makes me think that it's an LOH pretending that they have Lin's and the Rocket's best interest in mind when in reality, they only want to get rid of Lin.

Realistically, it's probably a mix of both.

 

Your entire post is a giant strawman.

Me and me kind?

Actually my opinion is that if Jeremy is used right and given the chance to play as the main PG it will bring greater success to the Rockets. Calvin Murphy seems to agree with this. Of course those who never thought Lin was good enough are not going to see things this way.

If you think that I want Lin to somehow succeed at the expense of the team then that is simply not true, and perhaps that is why you have this raging hostility.

As for 'true Rockets fans.' I have absolutely no problem with true Rockets fans. What I have a problem with is people who use their fandom to hide their prejudice/hatred and use it to put themselves above others whose opinions they don't like/disagree with in order to discount said opinions. I have no respect for people who constantly attack posters personally and attempt to delegitimise them rather than discussing the substance of their argument.

People are not one-dimensional. It is perfectly possible to be prejudiced against Lin while still believing you only care what is best for the team. These are not necessarily contradictory positions. Tony Blair still believes he did the right thing in misleading the British Parliament to garner support for the invasion of Iraq. He still believes that he did a good thing in supporting the war. The fact that he is making a lot of money in the aftermath does little to contradict this belief.

It is not the least bit uncommon for people to hold opinions that are contradictory to their own best interests or to what they percieve as their best interests. Anyone who watches Fox News and relies on them for information is a perfect example of this.

Because people are beholden to their egos. In my opinion there are several fans, who are so blinded by their hate that they are unable to see that actually Lin can be a very good player on this team. Their ego is greater than their love for the team.

As to your last paragraph - There is a difference between saying -

'I disagree with your post... here is how you are wrong... your opinion is stupid.'

'You are stupid... everything you post is therefore stupid. I am therefore not going to bother to address the arguments you brought up in your post.'

As for Lin - Here is my opinion -

He is a good player with a lot of potential. He still has a lot of areas of his game that he needs to improve upon. I think he would probably be a starting point guard on half the teams in the league at least.

I also think he is the best option for starting PG for the Rockets and here is why:

It all depends on the style of basketball you want the Rockets to play. If you want to play with Harden as the primary ball handler, and the role of the PG is to hand him the ball and simply spot up, then it can be argued that Lin is better on the bench. (Even though you could stagger their minutes etc... but it can certainly be argued.) The problem is that I don't think this is good for the Rockets. Harden holding the ball most of the game naturally reduces ball movement and creates much more ISO type basketball. This is not because Harden is selfish but because he is a Shooting Guard. He is a good passer but he is not a playmaker in the sense of the word that there are playmakers in soccer.

A playmaker in soccer is not necessarily someone who scores goals. A playmaker is someone who sees the game and sees the possibilities before others do. A playmaker understands the strengths and weakness of their own team and others. A playmaker looks to influence the play to give his team the attacking advantage. Whether that is through an incisive pass through the centre of the field or switching the play to the other flank where there is more space to operate. A playmaker dictates the tempo and flow of the offense. A playmaker does this instinctively.

Harden is supremely talented. He has elite shooting and athleticism. He is also a very smart player. But he is not a natural playmaker. He is a natural scorer.

In my opinion this is what Lin is best at on this team. He might not always make the assist pass but he will often make the hockey assist. This is not always as obvious in basketball as it is in soccer. That is not to say that Lin is a complete playmaker. He still has a long way to go and sometimes he makes stupid mistakes that result in turnovers.

The point is that Lin as a PG makes the Rockets play basketball that is EASIER.

I think it is best for the TEAM that we play this kind of basketball, which will still allow Harden to put up 20+ shots a game and be super efficient. It will get everyone more involved. It will allow harden to save his energy for defense or for fourth quarter bursts when needed. Most importantly it will conserve Harden for the playoffs.

Mchale is a poor coach because he does not see this. He therefore overuses Harden. He does not have offensive sets or plans using multiple screens to free up players. Look how every other team runs our guards through screen after screen. Yet we don't do this to them. Why aren't we bumping Wall/Parker/Conley etc through Howard and TJones. Let their bodies get a little bruised and they won't be scoring as efficiently. Our guards are constantly fighting through screens while the opposing guards are constantly getting screens to free them up.

And now I am meandering. The bottom line is that these things are far more nuanced and complex than you seem to want to accept. It is much easier for you to put everyone in a box and dismiss them because then your opinions and tied to them, your ego, will not have to be challenged.

 

Good post. I agree in premise with most of your points. I also agree that Lin isn't always being used to his strengths. However I can't put too much blame on McHale, even though I don't think he's a great coach. I'm convinced McHale just considers Lin too much of a risk to make him the primary handler/distributor. Harden is also a risk, but his reward side is huge and fairly consistent. The main problem is that Lin was brought in to play a role that is now primarily filled by a better player. Jeremy has had to adapt his game to "fit" and I think it's hurting him overall. We don't need Linsanity Jeremy. But can he be the player we saw at the beginning of the year, pre-injury? THAT is the player I'd like to have. He was killing it to start the year. What's changed? Is it the lingering injury? Is he in a slump? Or was the hot start just a streak and he's now trending towards his medium? Too many questions for me to make a solid evaluation on Lin as a Rocket.

Also I'm not sure I'd agree that Lin is a significantly better play maker than Harden. I think his potential for play making might be higher. But Harden has shown he's a willing passer and setup man. So yes, I might give a slight edge to Lin there, but is it large enough to counter the inconsistencies we've seen?

I suppose an in game example would play out like this:

Three possessions late in a game. Lin runs the offense in all three. Two result in him turning it over on a bad pass or giving up a steal. Now let's say Harden runs those same three possessions and also turns it over twice. Maybe with a missed or blocked shot while tying to draw a foul. Which is the better option? Which has the higher chance for success? If I had to play McHale here I go with Harden.

Granted that's a late game scenario and might not be a fair indication of the offensive strategy for an entire game, but it sheds some light on the difficulties in using either player as the primary play maker.

 

I do not think going to Harden late in the game is an issue to anyone. Almost all teams rely on their best players in crunch time. What is debatable is how much you rely on Harden to orchestrate the offense for the entire game?

 

Others might interpret it differently. This is why you need to be considerate and respectful. If it is sth that you'd not like sb else using on you, then don't say it.

 

I couldn't agree more. Well said.

 

I agree being respectful is best, even when arguing a point. And we can't control how others react to opinions. But if an opinion only applies to a certain subset, is it wrong that someone clarifies that?

Take the following (for example purposes only):

"Anyone too young to remember the Rockets championships won't understand what Clutch City was all about".

Here I've stated an opinion about a group of people. I can imagine some people would take offense to that. If I had to guess most of those people would lie in the group I've specified. However some people old enough to remember the Clutch City years may also say I'm being unfair or disagree with me. But it's still my opinion, right? Is there a less offensive way to say it?

Again, I'm not disagreeing with the need for all of us to be civil to each other. Far from it. But the OP that you replied to made it pretty clear he was addressing people that put Lin ahead of the team.

 

I could argue that the inconsistent plays of Lin have sth to do with how he was treated inconsistently. Currently, he is playing both SG and PG on Rockets, even with him starting. Plus the short leash McHale has on him. It is hard for any young player to maintain consistentcy if there is an inconsistent role on the team. Lin's game is aggressive, attacking. This style often leads to turnovers. As long as he plays his game, 2-3 turnovers are acceptale. I hope Coach McHale can give him a little longer leash, so he can play through his mistakes. Confidence can go a long way when it comes to young players.

This is why I was puzzled by making PB a starter at the beginning of this season. Towards the end of last season, we saw more and more cases of JH and Lin played well together and they were building chemistry. I believe JH played much more efficient games with Lin as backcourt mate. I was excited about this season, thinking Rockets can build on last yr's chemistry and simply replacing Asik with DH. In my opinion, the coaching staff over-thought themselves and disrupted the chemistry unnecessarily with the line-up changes. I believe this season we have higher winning % with Lin starting. I am not a stats. Guru. Sb else may provide some stats.

 

aha, but what if its in the best interest of the rockets to trade lin for another player?

you know, get rid of that contract, bring in that veteran playmaking PG.

 

Tell me which one? Let's be realistic. Most likely Lin will stay with Rockets under his current contract.