I don't see the overrating. Yes, he accumulated some stats simply due to longevity, but in his prime he hit/played at a HOF level. Take into account his position changes, defense, and overall persona (not a "bad" guy... clubhouse leader), he really has no red flags. If he had played in NY, LA, Chicago, or even Philly, you would have thought he was "Mr. Baseball." I never thought he would be a first ballot guy... mainly because I do understand some voters will purposely not vote for a guy they feel wasn't the "best of the best" on the first ballot. And hence, he picked up more votes this year probably from those same voters... but he should have gotten in yesterday. Its more a fluke, really, that he didn't. Again, the HOF is for the best baseball players ever... but there are certainly guys in the HOF with less overall credentials than Biggio.
I think there’s merit – as a supporting argument - in a player receiving significant MVP consideration over several seasons; it reiterates that at the time, the player was considered among baseball’s best. But it has to be used responsibly. In addition to MadMax’s terrific point about hypocrisy (ie were it not for McGwire/Sosa and, essentially, steroids in ’98, Craig Biggio is probably – or at least should have been - the MVP that year), the writers can’t use *them getting something wrong* against a player. Biggio’s lack of MVP support in several deserving seasons is *their* fault; not Biggio’s (Speaking of irresponsible, I saw noted hack and moron Jon Heyman on MLB Network last night note that Morris (who Heyman voted for) “won Cy Young votes seven times.” I may have the number wrong – but that was the gist; the point is, he repeatedly used the term “won,” with no qualification, meaning Morris could very well have “won” a single vote – and that single vote could very well have been cast by Heyman… and somehow, that was significant. It was so remarkably stupid that it flummoxed host Brian Kenny – “He won seven Cy Youngs?” “No, he won *votes*…” Which literally drew perplexed silence from Kenny… These are the people entrusted with preserving baseball's legacy... BTW, MLB had Richard Justice on shortly after, and for all the guff he’s taken here – I have to tip my cap to him last night: he called out the BBWAA and suggested cleaning house; that too many voters were uninformed, stubborn and/or (in a roundabout way) old. Well done.)
Problem is, Mr. McAdam didn't even get that right. Biggio received MVP votes in 5 different seasons. He finished in the top-10 3 of those times. It was 5 times in 6 seasons (94-99). In the one season he didn't (96), he was an All-Star and won the GG. It would not be a stretch to say that Craig Biggio was the best 2B in the NL for a good part of the 90's.
I'm not gonna give these voters a pass, because other voters got it wrong. He had the 5th best WAR in 95, and finished 10th in voting. And he got votes in 5 seasons, not 3. He was elite from 94-99.
They may overshadow Biggio, but they aren't teammates and don't have that added hook to grab all the attention. It may well be the same, but I at least have hope that Biggio can perhaps grab a little more of the limelight, perhaps even because of how close he was this year.
Funny because Biggio has gotten MORE attention by barely missing than any of the inductees this year... and likely has gotten more coverage by missing than he would have gotten by getting those 2 extra votes.
Nick, I don’t think *he’s* overrated; I think his candidacy within this forum is being (ever-so-slightly) overrated. There are 13 players on the ballot who can make a case at least as good as Biggio’s. IMO (and it’s an opinion I think most would share), of that 13, there are 7 whose merits are unquestionably better. Rob Neyer, who’s a very smart, very progressive and young(ish) baseball writer (who is not yet, unfortunately, a member of the BBWAA) rated Biggio 11th on his ballot – which doesn’t suggest he’s not Hall of Fame worthy (Neyer thinks, in fact, that he is) – it simply means that he thinks there are 10 players that are more Hall of Fame worthy*. And while I don’t absolutely agree with that, I don’t think it’s an untenable position, no more than “He’s absolutely, undoubtedly one of the 10 best of this ballot” (which is an oft-repeated sentiment in this thread). * So, in essence, without accounting for first ballot guys next year, Biggio would move up to 8th on Neyer's ballot if we slide Maddux, Glavine and Thomas off of it.
Perhaps I didn't communicate this properly; I actually meant to criticize the voters for using MVP/Cy Young voting irresponsibly/incorrectly (as Heyman did). For instance, Bagwell finished in the top 8 of MVP voting six times; given his overall resume, I believe that's a viable supporting piece of evidence. If Biggio has mutliple top 10 MVP finishes, it, too, is relevant because I think his overall resume is Hall-worthy. My point was that if McAdam was right about Biggio's lack of MVP finishes (his accuracy, or lack of, is a whole other discussion), that that is the **writers' fault**, not Biggio's, because he was a viable candidate in multiple seasons and *should have* gotten enough votes to finish in the top 10. IOW, if voting totals confirm a good player was good, I think its useful. But I don't think a lack of votes can invalidate a good player; it instead calls into question the intelligence of the writers.
This certainly the most defensible position I have heard. To me there are 7 players clearly more deserving, not sure if its the same 7, in this exact order 1.Bonds 2.Maddux 3.Clemens 4.Glavine 5.Bagwell 6.Thomas 7.Schilling (postseason monster) 8.Biggio 9.Trammell (grossly underrated) 10.Raines (grossly underrated) 11.Piazza 12.Mussina I myself would have 2 HOF's off the Ballot, and you can argue Piazza, Trammell and Raines above Biggio. The steroid backlog is gonna start killing people. 3 come off, and 3 go on next year so it really shouldn't alleviate. He'll get in next year but he should already be there. 16 freaking people didn't vote for maddux for indefensible reasons (i'm sure Biggio was left off those same ballots), they really need to start revoking votes for people like that.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p><a href="https://twitter.com/KevinBassStache">@KevinBassStache</a> Another fun stat: avg WAR in 10 year prime Ichiro=5.5, Biggio=5.1, Gwynn=4.9, Yount=5.5, Jeter=5.1.</p>— James Rivers (@jamesatgsu) <a href="https://twitter.com/jamesatgsu/statuses/370577786055847936">August 22, 2013</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Oh, I'd rate Piazza clearly ahead of Biggio; he's the best hitting catcher of all-time. Biggio isn't even the best second baseman of his era (or, at the very least, he isn't clearly the best - Alomar has a legitimate claim, as does Kent). So my list, based only on accomplishments between the stripes, is Bonds, Clemens, Maddux, Thomas, Piazza, Bagwell and Palmiero. I think Biggio is in the next tier of still worthy players like Raines, Glavine, Mussina, Schilling, McGwire, Sosa... Actually, and not insignificantly, four come off with Morris (finally) leaving the ballot. We know at least one of those 16 was absolutely irresponsible - but it's possible some of those guys decided Maddux was a lock and used that vote elsewhere. That hurt Biggio, too, as at least 2-3 writers have said as much (they thought he was a lock so they used his vote on another player who was less of a lock - it's why I'd advocate for the minimum to stay of the ballot to be raised). That's a drawback of the 10-player limit when you have, again, PEDs aside, 14-15 legitimate candidates.
As compelling as this is, the unfortunate flipside is that if we were to take any of those players' five worst seasons, Biggio would rank dead last and by a wide margin. Which I'm not using against him; I'm just endlessly fascinated by the idea that Biggio pre-2002 (and w/o 3,000 hits) is a much better HoF candidate than Biggio's actual full career, including 3,000 hits. By sticking around to chase a not insignificant (though not as revered as it used to be) milestone, he actually did damage to his overall body of work. He was a dreadful player in his final 5 seasons.
I've been very worried about this going forward. If steroids continue to be divisive, there will be guys perpetually receiving anywhere between 20 and 50% of the vote, depending on where opinions move. That's a lot of votes going towards guys that are never getting in based on current thinking. There will be enough support to keep them on the ballot, but never enough to vote them in...which is usually fine if it's minimal. But we're going to see a lot of support every year for guys who are never getting in. That's a lot of votes that will keep going to those guys and flowing away from guys who are a few votes shy of getting in (or at least trending the right way) Basically, the issue needs to be solved. If not, we're going to be left with a lot of guys for the veteran's committee to later say "well he would have gotten in if not for the steroids issue taking up a lot of votes, so now we need to fix it"
Dreadful might be an overstatement, he was certainly terrible his last 2 seasons,but he was a capable starter from 03-05. After 00 he did become a terrible fielder. Even if you cut those last 2 seasons off his cumulative numbers were still HOF worthy. I don't see why you would punish a guy for for extras years. Sadly that 3000 means too much to many people, so it was worth it to hang around.
The 3000 hits helps him more than the decreased production in his "last" years hurts him. Check out a bunch of current HOF'ers last years... they're all pretty bad. Nobody ends the game at an elite level (or else they'd never stop playing).
If he didn't have 3,000 hits, people would be knocking him for not reaching that milestone. That's about as nice a thing I'm going to say a day after I'm still ****ing pissed off about this and I have to read bull**** about Mike Piazza being better than Craig Biggio. I hope Cooperstown is destroyed in a tire fire.
The BBWAA Board of Directors has decided to remove Dan Le Batard’s membership for one year, for transferring his Hall of Fame ballot to an entity that has not earned voting status. The punishment is allowed under the organization’s constitution. In addition, Le Batard will not be allowed to vote on Hall of Fame candidates from this point on. The BBWAA regards Hall of Fame voting as the ultimate privilege, and any abuse of that privilege is unacceptable. -BBWAA President La Velle E. Neal III January 9, 2014 <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Max penalty: BBWAA just lifetime banned me from Hall of Fame vote and won't allow me to attend a game as credentialed media for a year.</p>— Dan Le Batard Show (@LeBatardShow) <a href="https://twitter.com/LeBatardShow/statuses/421371472607588352">January 9, 2014</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
HOUSTON DON"T FORGET BAGWELL! Frank Thomas was the AL version of Jeff Bagwell except Jeff did things like run the bases and field a position at a gold glove level Bagwell, in his prime was one of the 3-5 best hitters in the game, with a sustained level of success. If Frank Thomas got in, then so should Jeff Bagwell.
