2 minutes in and he literally has no point. Now he is saying the idea that all religions have extremists is bull****. Some religions have never had extremists. What??? Christianity, Islam, Hindus, and Judaism all have their extremists. Buddhist monks can be pretty extreme too. He's just talking out of his ass without supporting his evidence. *exits window*
I'm done with this. I don't learn anything here, nor does it entertain me. chowd, texx, Izak, and ATW can continue jerking around or whatever it is they do in this section of the forum.
I'm not surprised -- you've done a poor job of identifying positive talking points regarding Muslim extremists.
Thanks, had never heard of the guy, just read the Wikipedia page about him (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Harris_(author)#Religion_as_failed_science). Interesting. Seems to me like there is a lot of truth in what he says.
Maybe if you actually took the time to read some of the posts instead of unsuccessfully trying to be humorous whilst trolling, then you might have learnt something.
Pretty much right on the money. Thankfully, Christians aren't as "Christian" as they used to be. Thankfully, they don't take scripture as literally as they used to. All religions should do the same and evolve, and become less, religious.
Repped. I've echoed the same ideas as well. I highly agree. As a Muslim, I witness how the modern world observes and criticizes a faith that hasn't undergone a reformation/reorganization. It's doing this before a global audience that lives in the fast-paced world of the internet and 24/7 news media. Unfortunately, the world is also more populated and the weapons are more deadly. Are there people out there wondering, as so many in history have done, how to solve the 'Muslim' problem in the face of these modern conditions? Will their patience wear too thin? Will anyone intervene on our behalf to protect those of us who peacefully coexist with our neighbors? Or, will we all be lumped together and dealt with as one? What with dwindling natural resources and exploding populations, it doesn't help that a major world faith is also trying to evolve. Sadly, religions rarely evolve without widespread violence. These next few decades will be tense. You should post more. There are only 15-20 regular posters in this section of CF, and it gets very stale hearing the same views. Posters that write sincere and insightful posts are in short supply now because too many left due to the trolls.
dmc89, you strike me as one of the most intelligent (and well-traveled) posters on this forum. I have wondered for a while how you manage to reconcile your obvious intellectual capabilities and rational thinking with the (in my opinion) obvious structural deficiencies and inconsistencies, let alone the violence and intolerance committed in the name of the religion/ideology you were born into. I fully understand that it is not easy to shed ideological baggage that has been force-fed to you since you were an infant, but I believe that your rational side realizes that there isn't much that holds up when you really think about it.
I really recommend every watch this PBS Frontline doc. "The kingdom of Saud" It shows how Islam has changed so much from the money it got after discovery of oil.
Well, to your point, sir... ...conflict begets more conflict. Strife begets more strife. As I believe from my faith, the only thing that ultimately happens when you "...fight fire with fire..." is that things get a whole lot hotter, and things burn up much more quickly. If there is a problem that Islam's metamorphosis is encountering far too often, aside and apart from Western influences, from what I can see, is that there is still largely a "state" or "nation" identity crisis that is playing itself out. And with all of the other ancillary forces involved from the outside, only those within the Islamic faith can shepherd any transformative redefinition of that religion that gives a more attainable repast to those who cling to its promises so furtively. One of the great accomplishments of civilization in known history, to me, was the separation of "church" and "state" from the policies of governing that happened in the creation of the United States. If that does not happen with Islam, I can't see that it can present its more valuable and heartfelt leanings to the rest of the world. Also, having billions of people already devoutly committed to Islam in its current form (with all of its still-to-be-determined negative idiosyncrasies), makes the necessary transformation all the more potentially difficult. Old habits (particularly in religion) tend to die hard. But also, especially with the current state of the world (technologically)...for all of the potential for major and enduring catastrophe, there is a unique opportunity for the "...Islamic Reformation..." (if I could coin that term) to undergo a major change, under the watches of the world, and avoid all that impending doom. (That last part there, that's the ignorant, indoctrinated, plantation-minded, American Negro talking.... I would still hold out hope for reform to be as bloodless as humanly possible, friend. We all pretty much know how good we are at spilling blood, anyway. No need to beat horse that dead. Islam, for me, currently resides where Christianity did in the late part of the 1st and early part of the 2nd centuries A.D. Christianity was born from an extrapolation and reimagining of basic Judaism, so I've never once understood an Anti-Semitic attitude from some who profess to be Christian. Even a stupid n!553r like me knows that you just don't disrespect your momma. Christianity, even less moored in traditionalism and exclusivity that nationhood and statehood generally create than its mother, Judaism, was able to be adopted more easily by those who could accept it mentally and spiritually, not simply by those who could afford and affect its traditions and rituals materially. And as for your compliment, I don't think the lift you suggest is as heavy as it seems, either. But it does take more than the simple venting of emotion, coyly masking itself behind disparate factoids easily disseminated through a venue like the internet. Emotions are valid (every one of them) and have their place in any discussion. But ultimately, what we all share (saint and sinner, Jew and Gentile, Believer or Infidel) are choices and consequences. No matter where an idea is born or formulated, when we act, a result is born. And the consequences of that act (no matter how "minute" or large), are not as quickly or easily erased or wiped out or forgotten or abandoned as quickly as a mean-spirited insult or a disingenuous critique. Particularly regarding life and death. And we cannot honor the ability to choose, and ignore the responsibility of consequence, that choice implores. I couldn't, personally, invite a conversation of different viewpoints and opinions and not abide by even the most inaccurate and vile of them. But that's what exactly can and does happen on the internet. I guess I'm surprised that so many people don't understand it. My late uncle used to say to me all the time: "...Don't walk through the cow pasture, boy, and complain about what's on the bottom of your boots..." It's not really about what you find in this life. It's about what you're looking for. I'm afraid that too many of us can't seem to tell the difference...
Islam needs it's reformation. It needs it's very own Martin Luther. I believe the biggest change that Christianity experienced after it's reformation was shifting it's religion into a more personal one. Many Christians say the phrase "it's between me and god(or Jesus)." In my personal experience, Muslims are not raised to believe their religion is personal or between only them and god. It must extend into political and social matters. I hope one day Islam finds it's very own Martin Luther. If not, we will continue to witness violence over silly things as drawing a damn cartoon of Muhammad.
I think the real issue is discerning between actual faithful adherents of the religions and the fanatic, often-government-centered faux-religious adherents of the religions. All the people who cite the Crusades as evidence that Christianity has a real ugly past probably don't understand the real history behind it all. Let's be honest, that "Christianity" is radically different from the Christianity you'd find amongst 1st century Jews (who never went for political gains or achievements but saw themselves as sojourners in this life, giving to Caesar what is his, and to God what belongs to God). And as a Christian who gets a little bit irritated when people ignorantly make those comments (although there's no denying that "Christians" were the ones to take blood years ago), I can definitely see Muslims getting irritated by the Western mentality of "Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims". I'd probably have to study more on Islam and its history (I've studied bits and pieces here and there), but although Muhammad did go to war, it seemed more for political and land gain rather than religious reasons. When he could avoid war and pursue social reforms, he did to a large degree. But I'd probably have to study more on both points to fully flesh out the ideas.
I appreciate it. However, I always stress to people whom I encounter in real life that my Islamic identity is inseparable from my love of learning and traveling abroad. These qualities are cherished by Islam. They change you and your understanding of the world. Sadly, few people including the majority of Muslims know and/or practice them. I chose to become a Muslim after two decades of agnosticism. Like fchowd0311, I was born into the Islam that most apostate's despise; the Islam commonly known today. His experiences and criticisms were similar to mine, and I rejected the faith I was born into when I was still in primary school. For the next 22 years, I devoured all the natural sciences and liberal arts that I sought. This ranged from materials engineering and geometric topology to gender politics and the history of tsarist Russia. World religions from every continent were part of this lifelong edification. I studied Islam and the especially the Quran with a critical eye by using every tool from several disciplines. It shocked me how differently I saw it after so many years. It was nothing like how I had been taught or how I saw most Muslims practice it. There is a path with many names: some call it Islam, some call it love/peaceful coexistence, some say it has no name. I agree. We humans get too hung up on labels, politics, and pride. The important thing is true awareness - sincerely choosing the how and why of your existence after careful consideration. If you call yourself a Muslim or an atheist, then you must learn all you can about this life regardless of whether it shatters your worldview and disturbs you. You must defend your position with vigor and logic. You cannot be spiritually lazy and unconsciously live like some automaton. And if in the face of scrutiny and debate, your position withers, you must relinquish it and adopt the new idea. I may be entirely wrong about Islam and should be prepared to abandon it if the foundation that justifies my faith is mistaken. So far it hasn't. That is why I remain a Muslim. I have the framework and flexibility of embracing and discarding ideas if the evidence and logic says otherwise. Finally, I addressed most of the issues you mention in this post. I apologize for its length, but clarifying something so massive and misconstrued cannot be done in a few lines. Most skeptics of Islam see violent followers and violent verses in the Quran; they just connect the dots. However, as a product of Western and Eastern thinking, and a citizen of a society where higher knowledge is cheap and accessible, that one must gaze deeper: A centuries-old repository filled with sexist and violent interpretations, an education apparatus funded by oceans of petrodollars that propagate these incorrect interpretations and brainwash the students, a culture without separation of church and state or freedom of expression, a society whose higher thinking collapsed in the 13th c. when Baghdad was sacked, a faith where there is neither a Vatican nor a Martin Luther, and finally poor employment and standards of living for the grunts that comprise extremist groups. This all is why Islam is stuck where it is today.
Because that's exactly what I posted. Coward. Waits for me to say I wont post anything in this thread to take his lick.
No one cares what you or 5 other posters think. Supporting evidence is the only thing that should matter in this section of the forum. But it isn't, and that's why it only has 10-15 active posters.
I dont really give a crap what you think Andre Wiggins... Side note the real Andre Wiggins will be a bust.. Mark it dude.
You were given supporting evidence, direct quotes from the Quran & Hadith, that you refused to read. Debating with you is like playing chess with a pigeon. It knocks over all the pieces, craps on the board & then struts around like its victorious.
