There are plenty of old clips of Russell. He was an athletic freak, but he had no real offensive game. His battles against Wilt were pretty lopsided too.
So you're basing your evaluation of one of the most accomplished athletes of all time on some clips and box scores? Seems legit.
Hand-checking and hard fouls are so overblown, and they're used to romanticize the MJ era. Defenses today are far more schematically complex, with the implementation of zones and analytically inspired schemes. All the defensive metrics show that it's harder to score in today's league than it was in the 80s to the mid-90s. Teams painted as defensive powerhouses, like the Bad-Boy Pistons are very average statistically on that end, compared to defenses of today (as seen in the stats posted above). Also, it's harder to stat-pad in today's game, as ultra-efficient scorers like LeBron are shooting less than 16 times a game, while Jordan shot between 22-27 fga for pretty much his entire career. It's a more team-centric philosophy today (also inspired by analytics) and the individual hero-ball has dissipated, for the better of the game (the only guy shooting that much is Melo, and it's universally understood that it's detrimental to his team for him to shoot that much, even if his raw numbers are inflated).
He wasn't a ball handler or scorer and couldn't run an offense like Lebron. Russell was a great defender and rebounder but he also played on some stacked teams. Russell is one of the more overrated greats in NBA history. I'd take David Robinson over Russell in a second too.
I think the fact that Lebron has entered the conversation of GOAT or even top 5 players ever during his prime is enough to truly appreciate how great he is. The guy has at least 6 more years of basketball left. He has evolved his game to where he doesn't completely rely on his athleticism. I personally hope he does put the argument up against MJ. Alot of the old-timers hate seeing a guy of this generation get close to their gods in MJ, Bird, and Magic. Records are meant to be broken and players are supposed to be bested. One day, we're going to be arguing that Player X could never do what Lebron did.
Not if you compare what they did 10 years in to his career thus far. Look at it that way and it paints a different picture. Ten years in LeBron has won 4 MVPs, 2 Finals MVP, led a team to 4 Finals and 2 titles and has banana numbers. Does that overall resume stack up to ANYBODY ten years in? It sure does. And when you judge peak play, ie compare players and their impact at their very best, he stacks up there as well.
This. And the fact that Miami = the Monstarzz probably the most stacked team in the history of the NBA.
Wow. It's as if everyone is making an excuse for Jordan saying because he played in the handchecking era he is automatically the greatest of all time. Lebron would terrorize wings on D even more so than he does now if the physicality and handchecking rules were still in place. Not taking anything away from Jordan, but I think it's very very close compariing their greatness. BTW, bringing up clutch factor again? I'm pretty sure Lebron proved everyone how clutch he can be in the last 2 final runs.
Are you sure? It's no coincidence that the very year hand-checking was eliminated the league had the most perimeter players top 10 in scoring ever.
Could also be the fact that there has a shortage of big men that can score the ball. Or maybe the zone defense is preventing most low post scorers from being as prolific as they used to be.
LeBron's FG% this season is beastly even by his own standards. And might be better than anything MJ did FG%-wise. There's just no denying hand-checking and big time rim protectors aren't HUGE factors. People often get caught up during debates by making extreme statements. MJ supporters will say "it's all hand-checking".. and LeBron fans will say "hand-checking is NOTHING". There can be a middle ground. The rules have helped all perimeter players, but that doesn't mean any player post-MJ can't be better.
Really, you would stretch it that far? So from your remark, lets just disregard what the Vice President of NBA Stu Jackson said at the time why they introduced the handchecking and 3 second rule back in 04/05 NBA Executive Vice President Stu Jackson had this to say about the rule changes: "Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots-having more time to shoot-they tend to make more of them... With the rule and interpretation changes, it has become more difficult for defenders to defend penetration, cover the entire floor on defensive rotations and recover to shooters. This has provided more time for shooters to ready themselves for quality shots. With more dribble penetration, ball handlers are getting more opportunities at the rim. Additionally, teams now realize the 3-point shot is a great competitive equalizer, so they are taking more; they have improved their skill level on threes and are making them at a higher rate." Oh hey....who cares what this NBA executive's opinion is on why they introduced this rule back in 04/05...all perimeter players from 04/05 for some reason just became that much more athletic and and fast, perhaps Gatorade added something in their drink this year that added an extra element to the perimiter players abilities but it had an adverse effect on the post players
I think when it's said and done he will be the GOAT. However, Jordan's image is God like. He is known EVERYWHERE in the world. A recently read that Michael Jackson was the most famous person in the world, that even tribes in Amazonia who had never listened to the sound of a radio knew who he was. Michael Jordan developed that kind of persona, everyone knows who he is, everyone wanted to be Like Mike. He was a sex symbol for women, he had an aura and swag around him. We are talking about the guy who led the first Dream Team and put stars in the eyes of generations or Europeans who probably had never seen an alley hoop. There was no internet to see a 15 year old kid throw down a nastier dunk than LeBron. If you saw it you were shook and that memory of "seeing Michael Jordan dunk" (even an average dunk) would stay with you for years. Nowadays it's hard to be special or amazing, because one minute you can make a half court shot the next an Ethiopian kid makes the same but blind folded. And because of his shoes, movies, pictures, god-like persona that was developed around and by him, people tend to overrate him. He is the best, yes, but not by such a large margin as his image reflects. It seems that today it's even an insult to question if he was the GOAT or not. And that's the problem with LeBron. I think he'll go down as one of the most efficient players in history, but it'll be tough to challenge Jordan because he doesn't have that image across the world. His entourage and sponsors haven't been able to make him big enough. Just look at how many Facebook fans he has (15M) compared to Cristiano Ronaldo (68M). Jordan isn't even playing and yet he has 25M Facebook fans, and I'd say a good chunk of those probably have never seen him play live. That's almost double the fan base..
Lebron's 6'8 and has essentially Karl Malone's body with Kobe's athletecism. Which do you think does more damage, a random 6'5/6'4 SG handchecking him or him being able to handcheck the guy he's defending? Lebron isn't a typical perimeter player, sure his FG% will go down but if he can handcheck opponents then overall his dominance will actually increase, one-on-one he can avoid shooting those mid-range Js he likes so much (since he gets handchecked anyway) and just back his opponent in the post and dunk on his b**** ass. Defensively though, nobody will be able to score on him without a fight though, I expect his opponent's FG to drop all the way to 30's. LBJ isn't Steve Nash or Steph Curry who would get mugged if the handchecking was put back in. He'd be the one doing the mugging if handchecking was allowed.
This only applies to the 90's generation though, for example during MJ's time when he was just rising up people idolized Magic and Bird and thought MJ was just a selfish ballhog who couldn't get past the team-oriented and tough as nails Detroit Bad Boys. As time goes on though more and more people won't be born drinking the MJ kool-aid, I mean just look at all the posters here defending LBJ, 5 years ago anybody who dares questions MJ's greatness on the forum gets his ass handed to him on a silver platter. I think if LBJ continues his production for a couple more years he'll end up the GOAT, he just needs a couple more MVPs, rings and FMVPs to his name.
Theoretically, LeBron would have the advantage. Problem is, he has shown the tendency to avoid contact and not get physical. Dude is physically "Malone-like", but won't consistently post up.
I don't think LBJ avoids contact, he avoids meaningless contact. Driving into the lane when it's full of defenders takes a toll on your body, you wear out the ligaments on your legs with the sudden changes in direction and then you get banged by other athletes. This is fine when the playoffs come and you can rest and recover once the season is over, however in the regular season you should try to minimize contact and save wear and tear. If you notice LBJ plays SF in the regular season, and then switches to PF once the playoff starts. I don't think you can say he's avoiding contact when he's been guarding the opponent's best player since day 1 in the playoffs until the end and focusing on scoring in the post on offense.
This is probably a lie. im not going to bother looking it up. Really other than Shaq (2x) and David Robinson (once) you basically have to back to 1976 and Bob McAdoo to find a big man who won a scoring title. Strike 12. Shut up.
