1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Harden/Lin modeled after Knicks/Miami or Spurs/OKC?

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Skyhoop, Oct 13, 2013.

?

Which model to choose for working with Harden and Lin?

  1. Start them together and mesh them, Rolls Royce backcourt, Miami superfriends

    83 vote(s)
    43.7%
  2. Bring Lin off the bench, Manu in SA, Harden in OKC (even if it means Lin leaving like Harden)

    52 vote(s)
    27.4%
  3. Trade Lin, problem solved

    14 vote(s)
    7.4%
  4. I don't know

    12 vote(s)
    6.3%
  5. You're an idiot and I refuse to vote in this poll, oohhh....shiny!

    29 vote(s)
    15.3%
  1. Skyhoop

    Skyhoop Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2012
    Messages:
    683
    Likes Received:
    43
    It's no secret that Harden and Lin are both guards with playmaking and pick-and-roll talents and both do well when ball dominant. There's been talk of duplicate abilities and how to work them both together. Historically, the Rockets are not the first to encounter such a situation. There have been two main ways to deal with duplicate skill sets.

    In the 1970's, the Knicks had Walt "Clyde" Fraizer and Earl "The Pearl" Monroe. The duo later became known as the "Rolls Royce" backcourt and went on to win a championship together. The two guards were both ball dominant playmakers, and there was a lot of skepticism about putting the two of them together.

    Last year, Fraizer chimed in: http://blog.chron.com/ultimaterocke...ays-meshing-lin-harden-just-a-matter-of-time/

    When Lebron joined Wade in Miami, there were similar questions just like there were when Monroe joined Fraizer. Lebron and Wade were both ball dominant scoring wing players. They had to learn to work together and both adjusted their games. Lebron had to develop a better post game, and Wade learned to play more off-ball, and Lebron improved his passing.

    So here, you have two examples of players who are seen as having duplicate abilities and both ball dominant that people doubted could work well together. They learned to mesh as a starting unit and won championships.

    Then you have the opposite point of view with Spurs and OKC.

    Instead of meshing Tony Parker and Ginobli together into a starting unit the way Fraizer/Monroe and Lebron/Wade did to win a championship, Ginobli came off the bench to not conflict with Parker as much.

    The same thing in OKC with Westbrook and Harden both being able to handle the ball and playmake, with Harden coming off the bench. Of course, this ended with Harden later leaving OKC to become a starter on a then questionable Rockets team rather than stay on the bench for a contender and win a ring for OKC. None the less, the Spurs and OKC both saw success with the off-the-bench strategy.

    So, that brings us to the Rockets and Harden and Lin (and no, I'm not saying their talent level is like Lebron or Fraizer or whoever). But they also run into the problem of being seen to have some overlapping abilities like pick-and-roll and playmaking, just like Frazier/Monroe, Lebron/Wade, Parker/Ginobli, Westbrook/Harden were combos seen to have conflicting ball dominant guys with overlapping redundant abilities when they first matched up.

    So which model would you choose? Play them together in a starting tandem that can win a ring like the Rolls Royce backcourt or Miami superfriends and teach them to learn to adjust and play off each other, or try to minimize their time on the court together to reduce the issue by having one (Lin, obviously) come off the bench like the Manu in San Antonio and Harden in OKC. Knowing that there's a good chance that Lin off the bench could mean him going to another team when his contract is up (if he's not traded) to be a starter like Harden left the bench of a contender in OKC?

    Both methods can have success. The former won rings in NYC and Miami, but the latter is an easier system to implement. The latter takes less effort but with greater risk of losing one of them in free agency, the way OKC lost Harden. And maybe to some critics, Lin's talent is just not worth the effort and should be traded to resolve the issue. While others see the potential for a Rolls Royce backcourt with 2 attacking playmaking guards.
     
    1 person likes this.
  2. jvu

    jvu Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2009
    Messages:
    5,026
    Likes Received:
    178
    tOo hungover for for this. tLDNR
     
  3. napalm06

    napalm06 Huge Flopping Fan

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2008
    Messages:
    26,927
    Likes Received:
    30,540
    tl;dr

    But I legitimately voted "I don't know." I think either scenario could be beneficial for the team and I expect our front office and coaching staff to be able to figure that out much better than a bunch of reactionary fans (and Linners) on Clutchfans.
     
  4. sirbaihu

    sirbaihu Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2006
    Messages:
    8,517
    Likes Received:
    2,851
    Look, if they both start, you know LOF's will be complaining about Harden/"McFail" ISO for the remainder of Jeremy's contract. The poll should include an option: "Start them both and fire McFail and hypnotize Harden not to ISO"
     
  5. PatBeverleyFan

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2013
    Messages:
    412
    Likes Received:
    39
    Iso Beverley!
     
  6. Rox23

    Rox23 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,459
    Likes Received:
    64
    Finally Lin is living up to his contract...however it's only been 3 games. Still, he looks like a different play: his shot is so pure, his decision making and passing are getting to the point of Nash-like, and his defense has certainly improved. In 30 minutes yesterday Bev meanwhile only took 3 shots (made 1): that means Bev is not very involved in the offense; in fact most of his passes were simple lobs into the post. It's too early to tell what lineup works best and there are a lot of catch 22s. For example DMo plays well offensively off the bench however his passing in the first unit accommodates Dwight. Lots of options, good problem to have.
     
  7. CantBeRight

    CantBeRight Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2012
    Messages:
    1,809
    Likes Received:
    100
    Didn't read lol
     
  8. damnbiochem

    damnbiochem Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    155
    Likes Received:
    2
    i dont' mean to instigate anything but why do ppl think lin is a great playmaker??? I haven't seen him with that many assists in houston. He seems to get a mix of rebounds, steals , and assists.
     
  9. Patterned919

    Patterned919 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2013
    Messages:
    2,332
    Likes Received:
    163
    Stop man. This isn't LeBron/Wade or Westbrook/Harden. In this case one is extremely good and the other is a roleplayer. Overlapping skillsets happen all the time. It's up to the roleplayer to fit into his role. My stance is I don't care much what we do at the moment. Let Lin try out starting, let Lin try out the bench, and just trade him if he doesn't fit into the team.

    It reminds me of that answer Morey gave to the guy who won a dinner with him. He said earlier he was just worried about accumulating decent players. Now that he has great players, he's worried more about the fit.
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. conquistador#11

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2006
    Messages:
    39,162
    Likes Received:
    28,307
    whoa, you mother lovers need to stop comparing lin to a H.O.F in frazier. Oh that was Frazier doing the comparing, Nevermind, i'm a dumas!



    It's not just frazier. having had to watch all the enemies broadcasts, many of the analysts love our tandem. Either of the first two options in the poll will work.
     
  11. NotChandlerParsons

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2012
    Messages:
    4,013
    Likes Received:
    127
    Getting 6 assists when you aren't the primary ball handling guard is pretty good
     
  12. Postcall

    Postcall Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2012
    Messages:
    505
    Likes Received:
    16
    I voted I dont know but for what its worth Clyde said play them together.
     
  13. K-Low_4_Prez

    K-Low_4_Prez Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2011
    Messages:
    7,455
    Likes Received:
    1,340
    See this is what I don't get... People say they are tired of the same post over and over, but when somebody actually post a valid discussion they have nothing to say.

    Anyways, I would bring Lin off the bench so he can run the second unit rather than always having to play off of Harden and Howard. This is not me hating on Lin because I think he is a solid NBA player that has a pretty good upside, (I don't think he is a superstar like some of the posters here), Its just what I think would be the best solution in a perfect world. Now if Jeremy totally shuts down coming off the bench and you lose him (mentally not physically, because I think eventually he does get traded), I wouldn't do it because Beverley can still be that spark that we need off the bench.

    I don't think you can go wrong either way though really because Harden and Lin do seem to get along really well and have shown they can play really well together at times, and this team is only going to go as far as Harden and Dwight take us, regardless of what Lin does.
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. K-Low_4_Prez

    K-Low_4_Prez Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2011
    Messages:
    7,455
    Likes Received:
    1,340
    To be fair, Frazier made the comparison himself...
     
  15. mig0s

    mig0s Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2008
    Messages:
    3,895
    Likes Received:
    689
    how about we bench both Harden and Lin. Problem solved.
     
  16. Hardlin parsard

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2013
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    2
    I chose the last one just because i'm an ******* ;)
     
  17. hltiki

    hltiki Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2012
    Messages:
    1,372
    Likes Received:
    29
    Finally!!!
     
  18. Rockets12

    Rockets12 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    4,911
    Likes Received:
    636
  19. YYYY1313

    YYYY1313 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2012
    Messages:
    1,235
    Likes Received:
    8
    I went with starting them together and just have them get use to working with one another. I believe Lin will prove to the world this season he was no fluke.
     
  20. Aleron

    Aleron Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2010
    Messages:
    11,685
    Likes Received:
    1,113
    Lin as 6th man isn't just about Lin and Harden's skillset duplication.

    Our non starter rotation players look to be

    PG, Garcia, Casspi, Dmo, Asik.

    Dmo can create for himself somewhat, but not really others, the other 3 can't create for anyone, but 2 of them seem to work really well off drive and kick. Beverley isn't that man, put Bev there and there's no one who can create for others.

    Now look at the other 5

    pg, Harden, Parsons, Jones, Howard, all of those guys except for maybe Jones can create for others at either a reasonable or elite level. Beverley benefits here because he can serve to harass the opposing starter early

    For the first 3 quarters, the goal here is for the offense to be as strong across the board as possible, it's not even that i think beverley is a better starter, it's that i think lin on a ginobili style minute rotation (runs with primarily bench first 3 quarters, plays with starters in quarter 4) will provide much better production out of the bench players than what the starters lose.

    It's a case of, i feel (a healthy) lin probably adds at most +2 over beverley for 48 minutes with the starters, but is probably closer to +6 with the bench rotation guys.

    As for the team comparisons, I'll take Gregg Popovich as who is the best utilizer of team talent in nba history thanks.
     
    #20 Aleron, Oct 13, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2013

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now