ClutchFans Game Thread: Rockets @ Pacers 10/10/2013 in Manila, Philippines (PRESEASON)

You're comparing Harden's role in OKC (3rd option next to Durant and Westbrook) with his role in Houston (1st option). Harden did not have to exert as much energy while on the floor in OKC as he would here. So, its not just that you're trying to squeeze in extra minutes for him, you're doing so when he's asked to do more, especially towards the end of the halves. Just a very bad strategy.

 

If you could manage to bring Harden off the bench while not taking on a lesser role in the offense while he's on the floor and not significantly cutting into his minutes, then I would not consider it a demotion. Practically speaking, its just not feasible to do so, for the reasons I gave.

 

Is it a demotion? Why not ask James Harden last year? Why is he not in OKC coming off the bench for a legit championship run? Why is he in Houston instead?

 

With Lin coming off the bench, he's more in ATTACK mode, as we saw today. He was driving to the hoop for lay ups at an incredible pace, and his offensive game was just on.

I think the difference between Lin coming off the bench vs starting is being a pass first player with starting and a score first player off the bench.

Which would I rather see? Off the bench Lin, because that means he's more wanting to score, and go Linsanity.

But also, the question arises, is Lin better with Howard? I personally think so but we need to see more games with Bev starting and Lin coming off the bench. And I think Lins assists will raise tremendously if he starts, but his production as a player offensively will be off the charts if he comes off the bench.

My gut says, Lin will be more effective coming off the bench.

But let's see what happens when pre season is over, and what McHale decides.

 

Very good analogy. In this case, I would definitely not consider it a demotion. You're moving Harden to a position in the rotation where he has more freedom to contribute to the team's success.

 

I don't know, maybe because OKC was underpaying him and Sam Presti gave him less than an hour to decide?

 

My advice, you're not going to win with a Harden off the bench argument. You don't have your top two players come off the bench. Period.

The argument regarding Lin has (haters aside) been an issue of 'fit'. I don't think that's a good argument (many many posts before this). And that argument makes logical sense, if not provable at this stage.

For me, people are too quick to think Beverley fits as the starter, when the reality is the landscape has changed dramatically with Howard joining and Asik still on the team. Defense is shored up. A better PnR passing and rim-shot assisting PG is of high importance now to getting Dwight his touches and balancing the two superstars Harden/Dwight.

And that makes Lin ideal to start, and play more minutes (including more minutes with Dwight).

But people are still stuck in last year's mode, or looking at Lin's second unit performance in game 2 thinking McHale will go 5-on 5-off in his substitution patter this year. Not going to happen. Or thinking because Harden is a better PnR player than Lin, he's better for Howard, without distinguishing PnR scorer, PnR passer to the roll man, and PnR passer to the spot up/3pt shooter. People are still stuck on how Beverley's defense will impact games when the reality is the biggest impacter of defense in Howard + Asik for 48 min and together for 10 minutes. They'll hopefully see this when Asik joins.

And they're still stuck on Beverley being a better spot-up 3pt shooter than Lin last year, when in reality, from the time Beverley joined the Rockets and played his first game, Lin actually shot better from 3s than Beverley.

So, just let things play out. I might be wrong. We'll only know when we see more games. But my take is that for 48 minutes, we will almost always have one of Lin, Harden and Howard on the court (unless game is decided), which means we either have a playmaker or a guy to dump the ball to in the traditional post game available to us at all times, which means that it's not a matter of finding playmakers to fit with the second team, but to find the best pair fits when somebody in the Lin,Harden,Howard, Asik group has to sit (two playmakers, two defensive anchors), and in my view the best pairs would be Lin-Howard and Harden-Asik (when Harden isn't playing together with Howard). PnR passer to PnR finisher, Pnr scorer with screens being set by a guy that doesn't care about shots.


This makes logical sense. Let's see if it works on the court.



But I mean, when the backups are in (not all at the same time of course) , would you prefer Lin and scrubs, or Lin + Howard while Harden/Asik rests and Harden + Asik while Lin + Howard sits (when the Harden + Howard combination isn't available)?

I would bet you that Lin + Howard + 3 backups is better than Lin + 1 nominal starter + 3 backups, and Harden + Asik + 1 nominal starter + 2 backups is better than Lin + scrubs.


And once we starting using normal rotation minutes as opposed to 5-on 5-off ... people will start to see that.

Hopefully McHale knows how to adjust minutes accordingly.

 

4 years 44 million vs 5 years 80 million? I know which one I would choose

 

I respect your posts but you're just wrong about this. It's a demotion. It may be a necessary one (or not). Lin may take it well and thrive as a 6th man (or not). It may be better for the team (or not). There is a lot of gratification and pride that an NBA player can take by being the 6th man. But it is viewed by virtually every single NBA player as a demotion when you've been a starter. BBAB is right on this. Manu and Harden both played and excelled as 6th men because they were asked and were doing it for the betterment of the team / following instructions. Given their own choice, I'm pretty sure they (and basically every other NBA player) would choose to start.

 

You're missing the mark with this. Harden as as a starter in Houston is a "promotion" relative to him being a reserve in OKC, for obvious reasons.

However, him being a starter in OKC versus him being a reserve in OKC? I would not consider it a promoted role, because by becoming a starter on that team he would have to also accept a reduced number of touches as he'd be playing more of his minutes alongside Durant and Westbrook.

 

Well if both of youu truly think that as long as they get the same minutes and role, then it's not a demotion, then there's no need to debate further. I'm specifically just pointing out how hypocritical it is to a group of people who thinks "Lin coming off the bench is not a demotion, but having Harden come off the bench is a demotion"

 

If Lin doesn't start, we will suffer. Harden will have to become the primary ball handler and passer in addition to scoring. Beverley will be more effective off the bench.

 

congratulations BBAB, ReyEye, and Junkie you guys are absolutely right

In fact the analysts on ESPN are having a heated debate on this very topic right now

Who should come off the bench for the Rockets this season? Harden or Lin

 

If the salary cap isn't an issue, why not?

Actually, if Lin got voted in to the all-star game, and Chris Paul was a reserve, but he played more minutes than Lin, would it be a demotion? I mean the all-star game is just a popularity contest, and if Lin wins a global popularity contest, why should Chris Paul feel disrespected. He's still earning more than Lin, still considered by far the better player, and everything.

But let's admit, Jeremy Lin is a better fit on any all-star team than Chris Paul, because Kobe or Harden's going to create their own shots anyway, so you just want someone who won't be taking the ball away from them and sit quietly at the corner for a 3pt shot. And not be ball dominant.

And at this stage of their career, Lin's easily a better 3pt shooter than Chris Paul.

It all makes sense now ...

 

This RedEyesKirby dude is making me LOL pretty good. Keep it up sir!

 

Are you really suggesting that being a 6th man necessarily means you have a less important role on your team than being a starter? If not, then in what sense is it a "demotion"? One can't just matter of factly state its a demotion without explaining what is meant by that. Otherwise, its just an empty status symbol. Is that all we're talking about, ultimately?

 

It's not hypocritical.

James Harden is a superstar, Jeremy Lin is not.

Superstars need to have their minutes maximized.

If for example, Lebron James and Kevin Durant were also on this team with Dwight Howard. Would I consider it a demotion if Harden came off the bench? Absolutely not.

 

Harden was going to get more than 4yrs 44 million.

And Dwight came to the Rockets so he doesn't have to take a back seat to Kobe, ie not demoted to PnR cutter/rebounder/never-get-the-ball-roll man/Kobe's b****, despite less money.

Dwight also came here for a BIGGER ROLE!

 

I'm pretty sure a big reason he didn't accept the deal before moving on to even considering about the Houston offer is because he doesn't want to be a reserve, and he wants to get his starter role. I followed all of this with him from his OKC days.

Harden wanted the starter role OVER Westbrook, which to him is a promotion of course. So I don't believe I missed the mark with this.

 

Got to see most of the game when NBATV replayed it. My favorite play of the game was that strong DHo outlet to Harden to streaking Parsons. Took about two seconds off the shot clock. Good to see we'll still run opponents off the court.

We've got quality depth. If everyone (ahem, Omer) embraces the idea of sacrificing for the team, then it seems like who starts vs. comes off bench won't matter too much. Heck, our bench might be as good as or better than our starters most nights. McHale and Havlicek easily made the HOF as bench players; it's not surprising they played on dynasties.