ClutchFans Game Thread: Rockets @ Pacers 10/10/2013 in Manila, Philippines (PRESEASON)

Other than Manu, pretty much most starting calibre NBA players prefer to start.

And most of them consider it a demotion to be playing back-up to someone who isn't as good a player as them. Even the marginal cases, like Lowry vs Dragic, Brooks vs Lowry, Dragic vs Lowry, 2Pat vs MMorris, Jones/DMo vs TRob, it's all the same everywhere across the NBA.

Most of these players don't get to where there are accepting being back-ups, believing their place is back-up.

And, correct me if you REALLY BELIEVE most NBA players do not think being a starter is better than being a back up. Regardless of minutes. Other than 32+ year old last-leg players. That by itself means it a demotion.

Does Asik want to back-up Dwight? Even backing up someone clearly better on both ends and who he admits is the best center in the NBA? If Asik thinks it's a demotion to back-up the best center in the NBA (and reportedly wanted a trade on this alone), would not most players think it's a demotion to back up a player that is inferior to you, especially when the 'fit' isn't obviously better (because Dwight changes everything).

There's no choice in the matter. You do what the coach says. And you keep playing, and play hard.

But don't pretend there is no demotion.

I haven't heard people consoling Asik that he should be happy being a back-up so he gets to defend lesser centers and lesser perimeter players penetrating the rim, and that his per minute stats are going to go up because he'll be defending these players + he'll save his stamina playing less minutes.

Give me a break. IT IS a DEMOTION.

But the key point here isn't whether it is a demotion. It is whether Lin fits better feeding Dwight and making him better or fits better making the second unit better because Beverley isn't a real PG floor general.

 

I am preettty sure you don't have to tell Clutch to "remember the team roster has changed, we have DH12 now"

But anyways. Harden came here as the number one scoring option, and to get paid. Harden would have been 3rd on that team with Durant and Westbrook (Westbrook likes to think he's the number one option).

Perhaps the team values Beverley's skills more than Lin's skills?

 

This is true. It would clearly be a demotion and no competitor would not get that. It's disingenuous to pretend it's not. However, how he deals with it (if it happens) could be positive.

 

I've said repeatedly it's not about Lin and his stats. I believe Lin's a better fit as a starter, because feeding Dwight and keeping him happy with touches is more important and neither Beverley or Harden is that good at it. More important than propping up the second unit, which is Lin/Harden/Howard's minutes, between the 3, are staggered, there will be enough offensive options either with Lin or Harden PnR, or even with both resting, Howard on post-ups. Parsons, Harden, Howard will all play 35 minutes or more, and Lin 'should' play 30 minutes. There's enough playing time across them to stagger minutes and have play making and offensive options available at all times

 

What if Howard's effectiveness is maximized when he plays PnR with Lin? Should he come off the bench with Lin?

I'm not trying to be facetious here - I actually think you could screw around with opponents we could start Lin/Beverly equally well.

 

Not so much.

I'm really focused on Lin with Howard making Howard's time on court effective. Not Lin's stats, or his effectiveness.

I thought this board attacked LOFs because they only cared about Lin's effectiveness or usage rate, but now the same people are jumping with joy about Lin playing back-up role so he can have better effectiveness and usage rate?

Jeez, they turned into LOFs all of a sudden? I thought these should be Rockets-only-fans, and look at the big picture of what is best for the Rockets?

And if making Lin more effective with higher usage rate is more important than making Howard more effective (which, I would say, is more important to the Rockets than making Lin more effective with higher usage rate), then are these people arguing for Lin as a backup now LOFs?

I'm confused.

I just want Dwight to be more effective, with higher touches (usage rate), because he's more important than Jeremy Lin, and more important to the Rockets. Dudes, Dwight's the superstar here, not Jeremy Lin. Why you arguing Jeremy Lin vs Patrick Beverley when you should be looking out for the best interests of the Houston Rockets team, and that starts with Howard and Harden (relieving some of Harden's playmaking responsibilities would also let Harden play more D [good for the Rockets, no?], be less tired, less prong to injury [although the science isn't clear on this], and have more gas for a deep playoff run].

Win-win, no?

Am I a LOH now?

 

D-Mo did well this game, nice shots and good defending while Cassipi dropped a bit from the prior game but still played well. Though I think Cassipi's going to make Delfino look like a reluctant shooter.

As for McHale, he's also a HOFer and probably does know more than 98% of us (at least). Lin did a fine job with the second unit but the primary success there wasn't him.

 

Let me make it clear. Howard didn't come to Houston to play with Jeremy Lin. He came to play with Harden and Parsons. Lin didn't help recruit him or go to the sit down either.

Can he play well with Howard? Sure but Howard and Harden's chemistry are the important key for this season not Howard and Lin's. Lin will play with Howard even as a sixth man. Beverley and Lin will play together too. It's not about roles, it's about minutes and Lin jump starting the second unit could be what makes us title contenders.

 

Agreed.

And "demotion" can refer to one of two things.

(1) being given a role that others perceive as less important, regardless of whether it actually is so
(2) being given an actually less important role

Lin and his fans can either worry about perception, or they can view it as just a different role which still affords him the opportunity to have a major impact on the team. I look at it as the latter. So, I don't consider it a demotion in fact, but rather a demotion in perception.

That said, I don't blame Lin if he's concerned with perception. That can impact his popularity, and his endorsement opportunities. It may even impact his contract when he's a free agent next time. But as a fan who's primary concern is how the team performs, I'm only worried about the perception of demotion insofar as it impact his confidence, attitude, and thus performance level.

That's why I'm rather agitated when people clamor about him being "demoted," because it just makes it more difficult for him to embrace his new role and make the best of it. So I urge people to not worry about the perception of demotion. The more they do so, the more they feed into that perception, whether or not it is a demotion in actuality.

 

That assumes that Howard's effectiveness IS maximized only with Lin.

However, Howard's strength isn't his offense, it's his defense and rebounding.

More games need to be played before one could determine who Howard is most effective with. Howard would have a far far easier time scoring against the Pelicans than Roy Hibbert and the defensive minded Pacers.

 

I was addressing the Lowry/Dragic comments.

 

I totally agree. Also, if Bev does decent with the starters and the starters are doing great, then it means Bev should be the starter. Losing situation all the way around for Lin. Poor guy. His confidence and mentality is probably so low right now.

 

How did he manage to play well with such low confidence and weak mentality? Or would he be putting up chamberlain numbers if he was feeling confident and mentally strong?

 

There's no sign of that at all.

 

He had 5 boards today.

And some of these comments are killing me. I see the game threads haven't changed much from last year lol.

Relax guys, it's a preseason game. Coaches are supposed to play around with lineups and experiment.

Some of the posters here obviously haven't been following the NBA very long.

 

Meh... Beverley has limitations but not to the extent you perceive them. He is an exception defender and shot the 3 pointer well last year.

Is he Chris Paul or John Stockton? Absolutely not, but he does well what teams with elite wings and post players need, he defends; hits threes and plays hard and smart.

 

AB got 4 fouls in his first 6 minutes.

 

THIS...

 

1) No other teams that went to recruit Howard brought more than two players. GSW didn't even bring any player (including Steph Curry) - does that mean Curry with his 3pt shooting isn't an important GSW player or that if Dwight went to GSW it wouldn't be to play with Curry?

2) Parsons was a personality and friendship issue. Parsons benefits more from Dwight on the court, whereas Dwight potentially benefits more from Lin passing to him on the court. Dwight makes Parsons better. Dwight and Lin can make each other better. A big difference.

3) Harden and Howard's chemistry is MOST IMPORTANT on the Rockets, that is why it is better to have a PG facilitator that isn't just playing off Harden. He can be there to balance, to make sure both get their touches and are happy. The Lakers would've been much better off last year if they let Nash play PG,and let him find a balance between getting the ball to Kobe, and getting it to Gasol and Dwight. The same case here. Your PG doesn't add much value in helping chemistry and finding balance between Harden and Howard if he just sits at the 3 pt line. Let Lin play PG more, it helps Harden and Howard, and could also help their playing relationship.


This is what is boils down to
- If I had a choice, I'd want Lin to play with Howard more than for Lin to play with Harden. Would you agree? I think most would.
- Harden is going to play the most minutes of any Rocket, would you agree? I think most would, because Dwight's minutes should be somewhat conserved coming back from injury and there's Asik behind him
- Perimeter players typically have better stamina and can play longer stints than big man, especially centers? I think most would agree.

So it's pretty easy, if you start Lin, Harden, Parsons, DMo (I'll use DMo interchangeably with TJones because really only one of them will play if you consider Howard playing some PF when Asik plays C and Parsons/Cassipi playing some stretch 4) and Howard, you'll get Beverley subbing in for Lin and Asik subbing in for Howard faster than you would get Garcia subbing in for Harden. Due to both big man stamina issues, and also there being the best depth on the Rockets at the PG and C positions, so the starters there can get more rest.

So it makes sense for Lin to start with Howard (best PnR passer with best PnR finisher), for them to get their rest at similar times, Harden to go euro-stepping playmaking mode with more Asik than Howard when Howard and Lin sits (while Beverley props up his defense) and keeps penetration into the lane less than Lin allows (which is also why Lin plays more with Dwight as the coaches want to funnel the ball toward Howard and Lin's positional defense is good there). And the SF/PF position is more intechangeable, and not that big of an issue.

So in this way, you actually get more Lin with Howard, and more Harden with Beverley, which is what we all want, right? Best for Lin, best for Howard, best for Harden (with defender to prop him), and best for team offense and defense, and easier on Beverley as he has Harden next to him so he doesn't have to be the creator of the offense?


I still don't see why Lin should be back-up, so he plays more with Omer which is not as good a defensive fit, nor PnR fit, and less with Howard, and Beverley don't get to play more with Harden.

 

Wait, are you by chance a HOF? (Howard Only Fan). :grin: By the way, I do think you make some very good points.