1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

An Analytical Approach to the Rockets 2013-2014 season

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by jtr, Sep 18, 2013.

  1. kuku

    kuku Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2012
    Messages:
    2,158
    Likes Received:
    125
    First, unless Harden's replacement has a history of zero WS, you can't ignoring replacement player's WS if Harden is hurt. Other players' usage rates will also go up (Lin and Bev are left with bulk of ball handling duty). Higher usage rate = higher WS. It's not as simple as just deducting Harden's WS if he is injured.

    Second, not sure if DRTG or ORTG are the liable platform to project the future results. Those ratings are as accurate or, as in this case, as biased as the person who invented them. Dean Oliver derived those ratings by using a set of complex formulas taken straight from the box scores. His calculations favor players with high eFG and if you go through the list, you will find players with high eFG's usually have the highest ORTG. Harden's ORTG took a considerable dip from OKC but we all know he is a much better offensive player, which doesn't reflect his value by looking at his ORTG's. GSmith had a huge difference in ORTG and DRTG, but in actuality his on court +/- was only a +2. In short, those ratings failed the conventional wisdom test.

    Third, 'A' for effort and passion.
     
  2. rlivz

    rlivz Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2008
    Messages:
    448
    Likes Received:
    65
    I can't tell if this is like, satire, or if jtr is really that full of himself.

    How is this "the most realistic appraisal" of the Rockets' season? You have no idea how well they're going to play - Howard changes the entire dynamic of our offense.
     
  3. durvasa

    durvasa Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2006
    Messages:
    38,893
    Likes Received:
    16,449
    I think you misunderstand what ORTG is. It is not a measurement for how "good" a player is in offense. It's a measurement of their offensive efficiency. Harden's efficiency went down last year (objectively speaking) while his usage went up.
     
  4. SuperKev

    SuperKev Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 1999
    Messages:
    1,760
    Likes Received:
    732
    I'm sorry JCDenton but your post was among the most nasty I have read here. You should be truly ashamed of yourself for that. What the OP is engaged in is analytic speculation about the upcoming season. Nothing whatsoever wrong with that and in fact it's a nice distraction at this time of the year when threads are largely devoid of fun facts. Since it's the upcoming season there is nothing to do but speculate at this point. My suggestion for you JCDenton would be abstain from threads that annoy you so much and chill out.
     
  5. jtr

    jtr Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2011
    Messages:
    7,470
    Likes Received:
    275
    You are a perceptive person. I am currently working on a much more intricate implementation which takes your point into account. My intent is to use team averages to fill in the hole, but given that the starters will be playing 2400+ minutes should I exclude them from the calculation?
     
  6. MonKing

    MonKing Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2012
    Messages:
    534
    Likes Received:
    14
    JTR writes very interesting, well-thought posts based on excellent analysis and research. But, yeah, he really is that full of himself.
     
  7. Rockets2K

    Rockets2K Clutch Crew

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2000
    Messages:
    18,050
    Likes Received:
    1,271
    yeah, how about actually reading his post before you reply, it would go a long way towards making you look like you actually have a brain. :rolleyes:

    JCDenton: If anyone here is getting banned anytime soon, it wont be jtr, it will be you. As it is, we consider you a joke...a bad one, but a joke nonetheless. How bout you stick to your lameass threads and leave the real posters alone.
     
  8. jtr

    jtr Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2011
    Messages:
    7,470
    Likes Received:
    275
    That is what advanced statistical analysis is used for. Predicting the future, which of course cannot be done with 100% accuracy. Morey uses more complete and complex analysis to work his magic. An amateur cannot come close to Morey's staff because they now employ SportVU data, but statistical analysis is still by far and away the best tool that we have.
     
  9. s.b713

    s.b713 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2009
    Messages:
    731
    Likes Received:
    32
    LOL i did not know JCDenton was still around
     
  10. basketballholic

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2013
    Messages:
    17,516
    Likes Received:
    4,171

    This statement is presumptuous and false.

    And people complain about me making predictions?? :cool:
     
  11. kuku

    kuku Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2012
    Messages:
    2,158
    Likes Received:
    125
    If you base your calculations on advanced statistics from basketball-reference, it's difficult to have accurate projections. What basketball reference is doing is distributing team's Pythagorean wins in accordance to Dean Oliver's formulas. Players with higher efficiency will naturally be awarded with more wins, which is somewhat ignorant and ignoring the impact a player has while he is on the court. Players like Battier will receive the short end of the stick.

    There are actually "stats whores" in this league whose foremost importance is their own box scores, or during contract year, they know how to pad up their WS or PER. Hickson, Blatche, D Lee, Calderon just to name a few. Those will slip through the crack of his formula.

    My suggestion is to use RAPM to make future projections. Some used -3.5 to -2.5 value as WARP (Wins Above Replacement Player)
    If you are really interested in advanced statistics, here is APBRmetric forum. And here is a blogger (link) who used RAPM to project team wins, individual win contribution, and explanation on WARP.
     
  12. jtr

    jtr Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2011
    Messages:
    7,470
    Likes Received:
    275
    I give people clear, concise and easily understood facts based on well known and respected advanced stats websites. You just give your opinion. There is a big difference.
     
  13. JustAGuy

    JustAGuy Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2012
    Messages:
    1,464
    Likes Received:
    70
    I like in depth analysis with numbers. But it takes time to generate, so you don't see such posts frequently. But the fact you don't see it frequently doesn't mean you're the only one doing it, and I think it might understandably irk people to hear that.

    I myself haven't posted anything like that because I'm still playing with numbers, and I haven't had anything interesting to add. I've become far more interested recently in ways to graph data rather than direct statistical analysis because it seems far easier to explain... much like your recent team graph. The human brain is really good at recognizing and processing patterns laid out visually.

    The thing I have been experimenting with that I think has the most potential is turning data into an animated gif so you can see change as you vary a parameter. But, as always, it is hard to isolate things with the wimpy data available to amateurs.
     
  14. jtr

    jtr Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2011
    Messages:
    7,470
    Likes Received:
    275
    I certainly could use TRAPM modified by total possessions to generate what the community has started calling TValue. I could then use the standard 32 TValue points per win to generate a projected W/L record. But do you really want to explain that set of calculations to the CF audience? I certainly do not.

    And that is why I based this basic article on Dean Oliver's work.
     
  15. jtr

    jtr Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2011
    Messages:
    7,470
    Likes Received:
    275
    All certainly true good sir. I cannot fathom the work required to construct an animated .gif, much less designing a graphic that made sense on the screen for when I do something trivial like adjust WS depending on games played.
     
  16. durvasa

    durvasa Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2006
    Messages:
    38,893
    Likes Received:
    16,449
    Wins depends on efficiency and possession usage. If a player is very efficient on offense but has a very low usage, then he could be given less offensive win shares compared to a player who is less efficient but uses more possessions.

    The Dean Oliver / Basketball-Reference model says that a player's contribution to his team can be viewed as a product of how efficient the player is and what percentage of his team's possessions he is responsible for. There's nothing inherently wrong with that approach; its just that, being based on the box score, there is a limitation to how precisely we can capture the player's "efficiency" and "usage" and assign credit accordingly.
     
  17. JustAGuy

    JustAGuy Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2012
    Messages:
    1,464
    Likes Received:
    70
    Constructing the .gif turns out to be easy. There are even sites on the web that take a sequence of images and spit out the .gif for you. You just need to generate a sequence of images that are all the same size and plug them in.

    The hard part is coming up with the sequence of images. I've generated some interesting ones, but the data is too granular and bounces around too much for them to be usable at this time.
     
  18. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    39,183
    Likes Received:
    20,334
    I think the issue with historical data is that very small changes can make big impacts. Coaching for instance can dramatically affect the +/-. A team can "gel" meaning just being better at playing with each other - can have an impact that individual stats can't measure.

    I think this analysis establishes interesting baselines, and it's nice to compare actual results to what historical predicts, but I suppose there's not really any accurate way to predict the future anyway, so heck, I'll give the dude 5 stars.
     
  19. jtr

    jtr Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2011
    Messages:
    7,470
    Likes Received:
    275
    The reason that advanced stats including RAMP short shift Battier is because other than using SportVU data (not obtainable) or watching every game and grading defensive contributions (to time consuming) no metric accurately values defensive contribution.

    For instance Battier had a not so stellar -0.3 TRAPM last season. Does that accurately value the defense and the spacing that Battier brings to the Heat? I think not.
     
  20. Carl Herrera

    Carl Herrera Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2007
    Messages:
    45,153
    Likes Received:
    21,575
    RAPM does not short shrift Battier. His RAPM in 2005-06 was +4.2, for example, and his RAPM in Houston ranged from +1.3 to +2.1. A -0.3 actually sounds pretty right for what Battier is in 2013. He is older and slower now and not what he was back in the days. This happens all the time with players in their 30s.
     

Share This Page