Three-strikes policy: Egypt military fires AGAIN on unarmed civilians and now reporters.

I think even the most hawkish neo-con would consider this lunacy, unless the goal is to find the one way to unite the Egyptian people with an external enemy

Oddly enough, the US has a good track record of not intervening in Egypt. They might have been doing it everywhere else in the Cold War, but even Eisenhower went to bat for the Egyptians during the Suez War.

 

As I wrote previously, the MB have proven themselves not to be rational actors with the best interests of the country at heart.

To whom are they accountable to? As the saying goes, all politics are local. Until a war crime is committed that is within bounds for The Hague, the only entity either party is ultimately accountable to is the Egyptian people. And only one side seems to be in any way concerned with that.

It's also important to remember that Egypt's army has always been the core of it's government. It's one of the few things not mired in dysfunction and enjoying the popular support of the people. In both instances when it intervened to topple the government, it only did so in response to popular protest and not the other way around. In the conflict happening now, it is still claiming that it is acting in the interests of the people as a whole, and it would seem that that popular opinion is still on it's side.


I have two serious questions for you:

1. What would you have done differently if you were the acting president of Egypt to stop the rioting (and scapegoating, violence, arson associated with it?) I don't have an answer, other than that force should always be a last option, but after weeks of trying to negotiate they were compelled to authorize force once the protesting turned to rioting and innocent people were being injured and killed. Edit: And churches and government buildings attacked.

2. What would you propose any major Western power do that hasn't been tried already? The EU has offered to mediate countless times, Ashton has probably been on the phone for the last 3 weeks straight, Obama has suspended an army training exercise, and every reasonably sane world leader I can think of has carefully condemned the violence.

 

I guess if all the other countries in that region didn't have fifty strikes or want to vaporize Israel this would be a lot easier call.

 

It will be a long time before Egypt's military isn't the core of the state. It's a source of pride to the people, has always maintained popular support, and is the most stable (and at least by relative standards, most egalitarian) entity in Egypt. It will also continue to call the shots when it comes to foreign relations, if only because of existential necessity. I could say the exact same of Israel, but it's not nearly to the same degree. Israel has civilian control of it's armed forces, but also like Egypt, it's generals tend to be less politically adventurous and extreme and doesn't want to rock the boat with the US.

Egypt is at it's core, an anarchy managed by a military junta, without that military, all they have is a rich history of antiquity. It's very telling that people hang photos of generals on their walls in their cabs.

Incidents like this are not uncommon:

It's not as though the military came bashing in the moment they began to protest. It escalated over weeks. It was only yesterday I believe, once two government buildings were attacked that lethal force by the police was authorized. Egypt still ranks as it always has in the bottom rung for human rights, so "due process of law" and "civil rights" are alien concepts, unless you mean "lock up people you don't like and beat them up if they complain." Since the Mubarak ouster, there has been a lot of discussion by Egyptian intellectuals about the direction they want the country to go and what sort of constitution they want. The MB have been the greatest opponents of its implementation, which as you recall, froze out all but the most religious MB members in the People's Assembly for any drafting of a constitution.

That aid is bound by a treaty, so cutting it off would mean abandoning one of the most successful peace treaties in the postwar period. It's also very misunderstood, and brilliant for Americans. The peace it has bought has served US interests well.

Remember when I said all politics are local? It's not like the US gives Egypt and Israel free equipment. It gives them the mother of all aid packages which can only be used to buy from US defense contractors. So it goes right back into the US economy and it gives the US an incredible amount of control over the supply train of both nation's armies. Giving up that control also gives up the influence over the most populated state in the Arab world and invites that vacuum to be entered by another major power (which until the treaty was signed, was the Soviet Union). If you have the political savvy to get that killed by Congress, world peace could be achievable with relative ease!

 

It is despicable that Obama and the US do not cut off military aid to Egyptian military.

Let's face it the US was for the coup. Israel is for the coup. America has made its choice. They supported Mubarak for many years and they would rather have the military than the Muslim Brotherhood.

Conceivably the US would rather have a democratic Egypt provided they can control its foreign policy and it can be part of the cheap labor neo-liberal system. If a democratic Egypt will not play ball on this level which is doubtful the US will support a military dictatorship.

That being said, the Muslim Brotherhood overplayed its hand and there does not seem to be majority support for their version of Islam.

The US policy toward Egypt is analogous to our policy in Bahrain where we support the dictator/royal family as they crack down on pro-democracy demonstrators with the US making an occasional harmless comment for pr consumption for Americans and the greater Middle East about calling for restraint by the government.

With this level of violence in Egypt it is difficult to not see this degenerating into extreme military repression ala Mubarak or a civil war. After massive violent repression like this you can't just quickly go back to moderate relations between the military rulers and a large part of the civil society i.e. the Muslim Brotherhood overnight.

The only way I can see a good result is if the secularists who led the original demonstrations in Tahir that overthrew Mubarak can rejoin the part of the Muslim Brotherhood they can be allies with to once and for all overthrow the military which was never actually removed from power. This of course would probably require the US to cooperate as throughout the whole Arab Spring it never ceased supporting the military, though it has urged them to be moderate. Hopefully this brutal and needless violence by the Egyptian military will discredit them to the point where they can be supplanted totally by civilians.

 

Northside Storm has totally gone off the deep end.

 

No one can EVER overthrow the Egyptian military or keep it forever outside of politics. I think Egypt has one of the oldest standing armies and true nationalist military forces in human history, and it's ALWAYS been part of the political ruling class in Egypt probably going back to hundreds if not thousands of years. One thing that survives in Egypt is legacy, and I don't think this sort of legacy will ever be broken.

On the other hand, keep in mind that the Turks had a similar experience in the past where the military intervened and overthrew elected governments at least twice before...only to now be have a true civilian government with control over the Turkish military. Of course, being part of NATO may have helped push Turkey into that direction. The problem with Egypt is that no single country really has much leverage over its military, and they enjoy some very good security relations with Israel. Did anyone see Ehud Barak's passionate defense of General Al-Sisi in Egypt and asking the whole world to support him?

 

I don't know what to say -- what a ****ing mess.

 

And then the MB goes back to doing what they were doing beforehand and crushes the secularists. Yes, glynch, a brilliant strategists for the secularists right here.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/15/world/meast/egypt-church-attacks/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

The Religion of peace strikes again...

 

Northside Idiot has been trying so hard to paint the Muslim Brotherhood thugs as mere victims in this. They got exactly what they wanted. They have been waiting for this to unfold like it did. Their attacks on the churches were planned beforehand to exactly coincide with this. They have been using children and women as de facto hostages in their blockade.

Here is a list of some of the churches and Christian institutions they have burned and destroyed - this was clearly an orchestrated attack.

http://nilerevolt.wordpress.com/2013/08/14/1198/

And they are not feeling sorry either:

Muslim Brotherhood in Helwan: (Summary) Based off of the actions of Pope Tawadros and Christians in Egypt, they deserve these attacks on churches and their institutions. “For every action, a reaction.”

Mohamed Saad al-Azhary (former member of the constituent assembly 2012): (Translation) “I strongly condemn the burning of churches for two reasons. 1) Whoever does this ruins the image of the protesters. 2) Who in their right mind would burn waste?” Facebook (Arabic)







The Muslim Brotherhood has set all this up. They are trying to provoke retaliation and a civil war.

Northside Idiot's attempts to paint them as "civilians" and "innocent victims" are very transparent.

 

Here is another article that completely debunks Northside Fool's attempts to paint the Muslim Brotherhood thugs as innocent, peaceful civilians, who were supposedly doing a Gandhi-like peaceful protest.

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/vie...5/Misinformation-about-Egypt-s-massacre-.html

The army is dealing with violent aggression from terrorists here. Maybe they have gone overboard in their response. But this is what the Muslim Brotherhood terrorists wanted. And now Northside Dumbass is crying wolf. He wasn't when the Muslim Brotherhood was in power and was making Egyptians' lives so miserable that millions of them peacefully went on the streets to get rid of them.

 

Just a matter of time before a young Christian kid retaliates...imagine what would happen if someone attacked a mosque...Egypt would go into civil war...These cowards, attack Christians that are just sadly..innocent bystanders...and these Muslim punks want to galvanize a politically charged crisis into a religious conflict...While praying for peace is natural; peace can only be found if folks search for it. A coordinated attack on Churches in the region is shameful and despicable...

 

http://dickmorris.rallycongress.com/6303/declare-muslim-brotherhood-terrorist-organization/

And yes, Northside Mathloon and others will immediately attack the source, but they do link to other sources:

http://frontpagemag.com/2013/raymond-ibrahim/inside-egypts-terrorist-camps-torture-rape-mass-murder/

Inside Egypt’s Terrorist Camps: Torture, Rape, Mass Murder

Now that the Egyptian military has finally begun to neutralize Muslim Brotherhood terrorist bases, the so-called mainstream media are doing what they do best—twist reality to the Islamists’ benefit by casting them as innocent victims merely “holding vigil” only to be slaughtered, while calling for the prosecution of the military for “human rights abuses.” They essentially follow the pro-Brotherhood Al Jazeera’s lead of portraying these bases in Rab‘a al-Adawiya and elsewhere as peaceful “sit ins.”

What the mainstream media have failed to report is that for over two months in these “sit ins”—or more appropriately, mini-emirates in Egypt—many Egyptians have been tortured, mutilated, raped, and mass murdered in the name of Islam and/or Brotherhood rule. (Of course, this is unsurprising considering how the media also failed to report on the nonstop and heinous attacks on the nation’s Christian minority and its churches, all validated by Brotherhood leadership.)

The anecdotes are many. For instance, one man accused of stealing was tortured and had his finger chopped off (in accordance to Sharia). He appears in this video—his face beaten to a bloody pulp—describing his ordeal. Like so many in Rab‘a, he was there not as a Brotherhood supporter, but because he worked in the area. Accused of stealing, he insisted he was innocent. When his accusers refused to relent, he said, “Fine, if I’m a thief, hand me over to police,” but they said, “No, we will hand you over to Allah.” He was taken to a room and tortured for fourteen hours, including by being sprayed with water and repeatedly electrocuted and stabbed and sliced with a switchblade (in minute 3:47 he exposes his mutilated chest). Then, his “pious” tormentors supplicated their god by saying, “In the name of Allah,” before hacking his finger off.

Women are also easy prey in the Brotherhood camp. According to a recent report, women are being abused for refusing to have sex with Brotherhood supporters. One woman was reportedly tortured to death and another critically injured and hospitalized. An Egyptian organization concerned with female rights said it “will expose in the coming days the extent of the violations and crimes against humanity which our sisters have been exposed to by the orders of the General Guide [Muhammad Badie] to coerce women to engage in sex-jihad, with torture to death for those who refuse.”

Here is another live interview with an Egyptian reporter who was kidnapped in Rab‘a, beaten, and told she must stay “because we need women for sex.” The logic behind the sex-jihad (or in Arabic jihad al-nikah) is that women are permitted to copulate with single, male Brotherhood protesters to help alleviate their sexual frustrations so they can focus on empowering Islam—which among the Brotherhood is synonymous with empowering the Brotherhood—without becoming too restless and possibly abandoning the jihad.

Then there are the corpses that are being found. According to journalist Ahmed Musa on Tahrir TV channel, one of the arrested terrorists confessed that Brotherhood leadership murdered more than 80 people who were either suspected of being police informants or were trying to escape the Brotherhood camps. The Brotherhood then buried the bodies in a mass grave inside Rab‘a. According to the arrested terrorist, the Brotherhood fears that, “if their camps are broken up, their crimes against humanity will be exposed and that the Ministry of Interior will take pictures of this mass grave and broadcast them to the world.”

Aside from these atrocities and accusations of atrocities, reports of general beatings surface every day. The majority revolve around people working or living in Rab‘a, who are pressured to join the pro-Morsi protests, only to be beaten savagely if they refuse.

Despite the many serious human rights abuses that took place under Brotherhood auspices, the only Western media ever to allude to any of this was an AP report that, after explaining how bound, dead bodies were found near Rab‘a and how many in Egypt insist it’s the work of the Brotherhood, immediately went into default mode by suggesting these could all be false allegations and, if dead bodies are being found, perhaps it’s the work of the military trying to frame the Brotherhood—exactly what the Brotherhood has been caught doing, killing their own supporters to frame the military.

Brotherhood exploitation of the media to garner sympathy is an old phenomenon. Years back, former Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, discussing how Islamists often turn to violence when “dialogue” doesn’t go their way, said:

But when I see that you are firing at me, trying to kill me—well, I have to defend myself. Then the international news agencies go to these [Islamist] groups for information, and they tell them, “They are killing us, they are killing us!” Well, don’t you [news agencies] see them killing the police?! I swear to you, not one of the police wants to kill them—not one of us.

And now, as the Egyptian military disperses the Brotherhood’s terrorist camps, right on cue, the Western press is doing what it does best—skewing reality to the benefit of the Brotherhood.

Still, there is one positive side to all this. Because so many Muslim Brotherhood members and their Islamist allies had congregated in Rab‘a and elsewhere, turning them into mini Islamist states where Brotherhood rule is enforced—torturing, chopping fingers off, sexually abusing women, and murdering dissenters—we have gotten a glimpse of exactly what sort of state they wish to see Egypt become.

But just as it took several months before even Fox News told of the Muslim Brotherhood torture chambers—despite the fact that any number of Egyptian media had for months been disseminating pictures and videos of those tortured—no doubt it will take a while before news of the Brotherhood torture camps is ever disseminated in the West.

Update: Now that Egypt’s military has cleared out and is investigating Rab’a, buried bodies are indeed being found. So far, 28 bodies, most bearing marks of severe torture, including charring from electrocution, have been discovered.

 

Yes, they are terrorists.

You really should get out of your mom's basement and see the world. Maybe then you would start to learn instead of trying to play the outraged wannabe human rights activist and wannabe economist.

 

You are an idiot. You have proven this repeatedly. However your inane tirade in this thread and on this topic and really shown you for the turd you are.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeTQJrFMzns&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Just goes to show how pathetic you are...

 

Do you support the Muslim Brotherhood? Are you with the terrorists?

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/muslimbrotherhood.html