Three-strikes policy: Egypt military fires AGAIN on unarmed civilians and now reporters.

Obama should keep America out of this mess. Let the egyptians figure this out on their own. This isn't about the military vs. muslim brotherhood - just a few months ago it was the military dealing with secular protesters.

What happened over there is that the Muslim Brotherhood abused democracy powers it was trusted with to push an agenda that wasn't what the people wanted.

The military is not equipped to deal with these types of protests - that know how is lacking. Country may fall into civil war. The U.S. has to be careful not to be involved. If we suspend funding, we are in fact getting involved - do you see that?

It's best to do nothing and let Egyptians figure this out.

 

They were subverting the court system with Islamist activists, detaining and torturing judges and journalists who complained, and compltely blocked any non-Islamist from being a part of drafting the new Constitution. Attempts were made many times to mediate (both from the EU and from General Sissi), find a middle ground and a democratic solution -- all were ignored. There's nothing peaceful about a band of facists kicked out of office refusing to step aside or keep things civil. In short -- they started it.

 

time to over throw the overthrows who overthrew the other over throwers!

 

Let them sort it out, we've got no business getting involved (we seem to do more hurt than good there anyway).

It took us a bit to figure it out, and it wasn't exactly peaceful. Same with the French. Same with the Balkans, same with any group of people trying to transition to democracy for the first time. It's naive to expect a perfect government anywhere, and it's naive to believe that Egypt or any middle eastern country can transform itself in a few years. They're going to **** it up and have a few false starts. They're probably not going to elect someone we want, and they certainly won't be leading the charge with progressive thought. But they're (probably) not going to elect a new Taliban, and while they might have a minor scuffle here or there, they're not wiping Israel off the map (even if they do have a full blown war, Israel has proven it can defend itself from foreign invasion, and now more than ever they have a better military, but that's another topic).

Everybody's so sensationalist. It sucks over there, it's chaotic, it's violent, and as I said before, it probably doesn't help the US and it won't be the forefront of progressive thought, but to completely shut the door on the entirety of middle eastern democracy already is stupid. And this is coming from someone who doesn't even particularly like democracy.

 

Because of the nature of the Camp David accords, Egypt's relationship with the US is equally as "special" (and problematic) as Israel's. There are broader implications in the Middle East from meddling there and I agree that the less said, the better. Doing anything is high risk and low reward, diplomatically speaking, from an American point of view.

 

It might very well be true. The MB's collusion with Hamas and lack of effort against terrorism (and human trafficking) in the Sinai was one of the many complaints from the opposition.

Now isn't the time for the US (or any other western power) to suddenly be concerned about the Egyptian legal system. Neither the Egyptian government or people would take that seriously, and the last thing you want said to your ambassador is, "Oh, so now you are concerned about these things? Where were you the last 30 years?"

All you can say is "The United States urges a restoration of civil peace and a resumption toward democracy." Obama is doing the same as any president would. I'm sure you are smart enough to understand how the game is played.

They aren't being "murdered for their beliefs". The organization has only been 100% legal again since the Mubarak ouster, and instead of having a political debate, they are burning down churches and attacking women and minorities. They attempted a hostile takeover of the nation, were stopped and booted from office, still haven't accepted defeat and are continuing to use violence against any and all who don't support them. They were given a chance to participate in democracy and they have absolutely proven their naysayers right.

There's nothing nice about a violent riot, or the means by which one gets dispersed, and unfortunately, that almost always means tear gas, armored vehicles, bullhorns, high pressure hoses and live ammunition vs. arson and mob violence. How would you expect to disperse a country-wide revolt of angry uneducated men that are willing to die for a God they thinks loves only them?

I'm not going to lose sleep worrying about the Muslim Brotherhood fighting secularists and burning churches for the right to have sex with their dead wives (it's in the article I posted) and persecute women and minorities, and I would be a very lousy humanist if I did so. It's unfortunate, but it was long in the coming and not a surprise to anyone who follows the situation there.

 

It's not about moral high ground - it's about in the end what is doing what's best - what is best for the United States - not anyone else. That is Obama's job.

And that job is not to get too deeply involved in what is happening there. Us cutting off military aid isn't going to stem the violence it's just going to remove our influence further with the military.

Right now the military is struggling to deal with a very volatile situation - one that can not be fixed until the MB are willing to compromise and agree to an inclusive future of Egypt.

 

I am agreeing with New Yorker.

Checking for snow outside...it's summer here .

 

Stop trying to call the terrorist Muslim Brotherhood "civilians" as if they are poor innocent people.

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That is what you are defending.

You are an idiot.

 

I'm not going to defend the military, but your defense of the MB is hysterically sad.

Your disappointment at the level at which the people turned away from Morsi? Acting like the MB was participating in a democratic process? Please.

The MB was not interested in democracy. They used democratic processes to get elected and then tried to become the dictators of Egypt, shredding the democracy they just got elected with.

It's unfortunate that this situation has happened, but this is not unheard of. A country transitioning out of military rule into civilian rule that was not prepared in terms of political institutions. As a result, a dictator got elected. The military HAD to step back in because there was no other recourse. They had not created ways to deal with issues with the government.

The transition to true democratic rule is a volatile process. I said in the first thread they'd go back through a coup. It's what happens in these situations. And while the military should be criticized for using brutal tactics, you should not be blind to who the MB is.

 

The only silver lining here is Muslims won't be able to point the finger at the U.S.

 

They officially disarmed in the 70's, but have taken credit for plenty of terrorism in the past -- including killing two presidents and the Cairo Fire.

The MB has been protesting since June 30th. They haven't exactly been singing "Give Peace a Chance." The Army was slow to react, but as the protestors have been on the streets for weeks, they are increasingly frustrated and agitated. They've been lighting giant fires in the middle of city squares, blowing up armored cars and police vehicles, attacking minorities and burning down churches, because quite sinply, anyone that supported the Morsi ouster, is their enemy and they have zero interest in reconciliation. I can assure you 43 dead cops and 18 burnt churches weren't random accidents.

Since the election, they have been fed elaborate conspiracies of persecution by the MB leadership and have become increasingly paranoid and reactionary. They've had many opportunities to negotiate -- plenty of foreign nations have offered. All have been refused. You are not dealing with rational actors with the best interests of Egypt at heart. If you read about their year in power, that's very clear, from torturing dissidents to persecuting minorities and women to keeping non-MB legislators out of any constitution writing project. They were far more concerned about what God thinks than the voters that nervously elected them into power.

Has the crackdown been brutal? Of course it has -- it was enough to make ElBaradei resign from the government. And it will likely radicalize the MB even further into much more organized armed conflict in the future. I hoped as most people did, that Morsi would prove the naysayers wrong and participate in democracy, but he didn't. Now they are inciting violence and spoiling for war and they're getting to have their persecution complex consumated.

What is happening now is the war they want, and every sector of society actually now is against them.