Islamists murder secular opposition politicians in Tunisia, Libya

I missed the part where Morsi was instituting a parallel Mubarak-like dictatorship---some worrying signs that were conceded under protest do not make a regime. I also missed the part where Egyptians lost their fundamental democratic rights by voting for a democratically elected leader.

though, seeing as how you seem to be willing to pooh pooh away 30 years of security laws, rigged elections, torturing prisoners in underground cells (some of which had the crazy idea that they should attack America), and the military killing unarmed protesters (as they did during the Arab Spring, and as they are doing now), I suppose it fits into the same vein of "I'd rather have a brutal dictator that does MY bidding, rather than potential dictator X who never really renounced the Israeli peace treaty---but hey they're muslim, so they're bound to do terrible things." Yeah, don't be surprised if people hate you and your way of thinking enough to want to attack you.

I don't exactly see how it's hypocritical for liberals to be inclusive of all political views, even repugnant ones. To me, it speaks to people who fundamentally believe in how democracy works---democracy is a dialogue of views, some of which you hate. Stifling those views through force is NEVER the way to go.

but really, the real question is, what is your expertise in these matters? were you Mubarak? Are you also doing assignment of foreign aid for the Defense Department?

 

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but you're rebuilding a common strawman.

If a "liberal" opposes exactly your way of thinking, that must mean they "defend the Islamists."

I have read through this thread, and I don't really see anyone defending the MB or similar. Let me make a little equation:

saying there's no good option for productive American involvement
=/= (not equal to)
supporting Islamists

We're talking about putting a ton more money and lives (like yours, thank you) on the line in an incredibly non-linear, multi-variable, American-hostile environment. To a lot of people (some liberals, and some very true conservatives, old school, pre-Wolfowitz variety), the whole region just looks like one big grease fire.

Me? I'm not sure it's a total grease fire. Case by case basis, IMO. On Iran, I'm not sure we could have really tipped the scales without a full-on invasion. America's not willing to get behind a third invasion in that whack-a-doodle region. Cheers.

 

yeah, i mean i'm an ardent believer in equality for homosexuals, women's rights, and I'm an atheist.

i'm a prime swing voter for the Muslim Brotherhood. if they ever expanded their franchise here a Klondike bar would seal my vote.

 

I will take a secular dictatorship any day of the week. Islamist "democracies" tend to turn into dictatorships anyway, so the real choice is between a secular dictatorship or an Islamist dictatorship.

 

I will give the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to naivete on the part of the liberals defending the democratic process in the Middle East. They fail to understand or acknowledge that it tends to produce Islamist tyranny, which is even worse than secular tyranny. I'd feel alot better about their intentions if they were to denounce the Muslim Brotherhood as a legitimate political actor that should be considered a viable option. There are very good reasons that it was suppressed throughout Mubarak's rule. Look at what they did to the country after only one year. But the problem is this... Who is next? Who are the Egyptian people going to vote for next? My money is on the Salafists, because an Islamist believer is not going to vote for the liberal party when there is a conservative Islamist option on the ballot. Problem is, the Salafists are even worse than the MB.

The notion that actual freedom-loving liberals (and I don't mean that in the sense that we use it in the West to describe Leftists, I mean it in the classical liberal sense) are going to actually win nationwide power in Egypt is a pipe dream. It is not going to happen.

I am convinced that the region at present is a total grease fire and we'd be best to stay out of it beyond the considerable political and economic influence we can wield. I am not willing to have any more of our people die or be put into harms way to save their worthless butts. We gave our blood and treasure to give the Iraqis a fighting chance at freedom and they are completely squandering that priceless gift that we gave them. The rest of the Arab states, Egypt included, are no better.

I'd love to see a free, democratic middle east, but it simply isn't going to happen. Islam is not compatible with free peoples, and the Islamic impulse is FAR stronger than the impulse for freedom in that region. The Arab Spring is destined to produce Islamist governments until the people of the region decide to put freedom over their religion. Don't hold your breath for it.

 

The Arab Spring at work:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2380097/Libya-jailbreak-sees-1-000-Benghazi-inmates-escape-prison.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490

It will probably lead to another civil war. We can hope that the "good" guys win, but... What's their track record so far? Is anyone going to take any bets on it?

 

More fun in Cairo:

http://news.yahoo.com/egypt-warns-sit-ins-weekend-death-toll-climbs-114638105.html

 

We agree more than I thought. So when you're criticizing Obama on this front, you want more statements and sanctions, and that sort of thing?

Overall, it may be like trying to get Christian nations to embrace democracy circa 1200 or 1300. It was just too early.

Or maybe (and here's where we probably disagree) we should just openly admit to the world that we actually run an oligarchy and just start advocating for oligarchies all over the place. Then our real overlords could share some of the real costs of nation building.

 

I'd like to see more involvement, yes. Sanctions and more forceful rhetoric would be a start. I'd like to see a condemnation of the MB for what they are, rather than treating them as a legitimate political organization. I'd also like to see more financial support to organizations that actually have freedom as their goal. I'd like to see more covert activities against governments such as Iran. I think there is alot that we could have done during their green revolution short of military force that could have tipped the balance, but that ship has sailed, spilled milk...

That's pretty close to my thoughts. They simply aren't ready for it. Christianity had to go through a Reformation and centuries of violent internal strife before the Christian world finally embraced freedom. Islam has never had any such reformation, and the Sunni/Shiite battles don't count, as they aren't about freedom or reforming the religion, much less bringing it into the 21st century.

I don't completely disagree. My feeling is that you're either a constitutional republic that operates based upon rule of law, or you are running some form of oligarchy. We haven't been a real constitutional republic for awhile now. Not all of us are happy with that situation.

 

Christians used to massacre people for their religious beliefs all the time.

 

Yes. But not recently.

 

Again, you appear to have utterly failed to have noticed the "why" of Morsi's removal. And you ARE defending the MB here. This goes beyond simple naivete, I am afraid. Let me educate you.

Egypt President Mohamed Morsi expands authority in power grab

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/nov/22/world/la-fg-egypt-morsi-powers-20121123

Please read the above before commenting again. And then come back here and tell me that Morsi was NOT trying to set himself up with dictatorial powers. I dare you.


As for the military's current actions, they are doing what they need to do to suppress the MB. They understand that Morsi and the MB will lead the entire nation to ruin. Your attempts to portray the military as butchers are not only misguided but misleading. Read, please:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/09/world/meast/egypt-coup

They are planning on a transition that would give the opposition some time to mount an effective challenge to the MB - something that did not happen the first go around. From the article: The declaration calls for a constitutional referendum in November, followed by parliamentary elections in December and a presidential poll in February.

Again, you utterly fail to recognize the nature of this beast. Their goal is the reinstitution of the caliphate and the global spread of Islam. They are not interested in settling for anything less. Let me ask you this: are you familiar with the term "hudna"? It's something you need to know when dealing with the MB and similar organizations.

Your assertion that the MB / Morsi supporters have been peaceful is LAUGHABLE. His supporters have rampaged through Coptic Christian areas, they have engaged Egyptian military troops in the Sinai and Suez, they have tried to engage security forces who are attempting to stem the violence, and they have repeatedly and openly vowed violent resistance.

Why are you defending them, again?

Wow, LOL at that total whitewash of an article. They're good guys, eh? Just a bunch of socially responsible, do-gooder social workers, or something? Just like Hamas?

Do you know who Ayman Al-Zawahiri is? Look it up. He was a bigwig in the Egyptian MB once. Now he runs another outfit. THAT is what you are defending. The fact that you have gone ALL IN on defending them is telling me that it's not just naivete on your part. You are likely either a muslim and sympathetic to their cause or otherwise antisemitic. It's hard to conclude otherwise.

I don't expect you to understand it. But to spell it out more clearly: The MB drive for "democracy" is a sham, they simply want to win an election so that they can institute sharia and not have to worry about real democracy. If they get their way then their "elections" in the future will be just as legitimate as Iran's are. Or Saddam's were. They are using fools like you to try to get an opportunity to gain power in the Arab world's largest and most powerful nation. And you are all too keen with providing them that pretense.

The military knows this. That is why they intervened. The Egyptian people have a MUCH greater chance of attaining actual freedom with the MB out of power.

Blah, blah, blah. What this shows me is that YOU are completely ignorant of the global threat that the MB poses to any non-islamic population on this planet. Look at virtually any Sunni Islamist group, violent or "non-violent", and you will almost certainly find MB members in their leadership ranks.

I know more about this subject than most.

Tell me, how long did YOU live in the Middle East? How many Islamists have tried to kill YOU? Answer or STFU. And no, you are not getting my resume.

 

Yep yep.

DD

 

Allah Akbar,

Radical Islam

 

Multiple multiple inconsistencies---

you bring up hudna---in the context of Palestine-Israel, without mentioning the history behind how hudna sometimes built into longer peace---

you deride Saddam's sham elections, yet you are highly in favor of secular dictatorships. are you aware of what the Ba'ath Party is?

you bring up Ayman, conveniently ignoring the fact that he ended up criticizing the Brotherhood, like other leaders of A-Q, and that his radicalization was caused, at least partly, by rotting in a Mubarak jail cell. Great returns on investment for that secular dictatorship.

you say that I am defending the MB, and that I'm Muslim when I have clearly made my views known, yet you defend the military's tactics without shame "for the greater good". should I just say you must be a butcher then? If you're going to get personal, pause a moment and think about how you are condoning the murder of unarmed protesters. Just because I believe in beating extremist religious views (like certain factions in the Republican party or the Muslim B) with votes and not guns, does not mean I will ever vote or actively support those people.

Per butcher statement---

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/10/egypt-army-torture-killings-revolution

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/int...egyptian-army-torture-disappearances-document

Yeah, I'm sure the military (???) has much greater hope to represent the Egyptian people. The same military that called Mubarak "one of ours"---because he was well, one of theirs, and who stood by and supported his rule for thirty years to maintain their privileges until the overwhelming public din was too much.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/113885/egypts-liberals-denial#

sure, they're more trust-able than muslims because i dunno, sharia.

Educate me please, with your CNN and LA Times links that are mere summaries of events that have been discussed time and time again without much editorial content, while you deride the Council on Foreign Relations as "whitewashing". Just because Morsi had taken some worrying steps (which I had directly referred to) does not mean that Egypt was an Islamist dictatorship or even on the solid path to become one.

Again, I don't see how your experience qualifies you to discuss these matters on some deeper public policy level. Please forward your credentials to a screening agency, that will determine the level of your engagement, so that you may post on this internet forum with the appropriate level of "THIS IS MY LANE".

(that jared cohen guy for example---I've been in discussion, seen his work. might want to get to know him, as some have said he is at the origin of the Egyptian Revolution along with some others. oh those Google MENA guys, and their safe Dublin office---and sometimes unsafe travels .)

 

beg to differ, Srebrenica+more.

I never understood how one could get away with being such an ardent fan of one Abrahamic religion while despising another.

not to worry though, I don't advocate gunning down unarmed demonstrators in the quest to prevent Palin theocracy.

 

Hudna is generally used against infidels. It can sometimes stretch for a significant time. But it is ALWAYS temporary. Again, you missed the point. The march towards a global caliphate continues. ALWAYS.

I am well acquainted with the Ba'ath party history, thank you very much. Please, tell me exactly WHICH ONE of their elections wasn't complete farce? When Saddam gets 99.999% of the vote, do you see nothing wrong with that? Did you just try and tell me that Saddam's "elections" were NOT a farce?!?

Ah yes, it's not like the current leader of AQ is a psychopath or anything, Mubarak turned him into what he is today... Always the victim.

You ARE defending the Muslim Brotherhood. There's no other way to take your responses at this point. I gave you a "naivete" out, and you passed it up and went all-in.

I neither know nor care about your religious affiliation. Really, couldn't care less. But you are defending an organization that has as its goal the global spread of radical Islam, one that has been instrumental in forming a global network of Islamists who have strong tendencies for causing problems for non-muslims like myself. I don't care what your motivation is, all I know is that your wordsd further their cause, whether you mean to or not.

Why don't you pause for a minute and instead find out whether all of those protesters were actually unarmed? There have been a number of armed clashes already. Google is your friend, play with it.

You ARE actively supporting them. Right now. You are arguing in their defense. I don't know whether you're just a liberal who's had too much to drink or an Islamist yourself, but the end result is the same. And your attempt to equate the MB with the US Republican party is absurd.

You want a good analogy? The Muslim Brotherhood is to Al Qaeda and Hamas and other extremist Islamist groups as Sinn Fein was to the IRA. Except the Irish had an ACTUAL case for freedom to make, while the MB simply wants to institute global sharia.

Well, to be truthful, a big part of the problem is that the Egyptian people are well represented by the MB. They WANT sharia. They WANT oppression. They voted 2/3 for the MB and the Salafists the first time around, which has to tell you something.

The Egyptian people are a BIG part of the problem, actually.

Those events are, you know, actually things that really actually happened, not just some dumba$$ liberal's editorializing and rationalizing exercises, as you appear to want to read. I'd rather present facts and events than some moron's opinions. OK?

My God, your denial is breathtaking. He suspended all judicial powers and reserved all such powers unto himself. He attempted to purge the military and seed it with radical Islamists loyal to him. He attempted to usurp those parts of constitutional power that were unfriendly to sharia. Exactly what the eff more does someone have to do to convince you that they intend to institute sharia and be sole administrator of its justice?

Do you even understand what sharia *is*?

I only quoted this so I could post a response.

 

And I have to say again, I left the board for a long time. I don't know your religious affiliation, I had just assumed you were another run-of-the-mill liberal atheist. So do me a favor and tell me, are you an atheist or a muslim? I really don't know.

(my confusion should cause you to scratch your head, as it shouldn't under normal circumstances be difficult at all to tell... which should tell you something about how your argument here is coming off).

I am a Christian. What are you?