Egyptians resist Morsi; US-supported military to step in on Morsi's side

well, considering who controls the media, and the state---

 

Just when I thought Egypt was hopeless:



<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/QeDm2PrNV1I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

keep up, Dubious

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showpost.php?p=8090565&postcount=212

 

I think ultimately, there's no question secular liberals have a better message, they just have to work on getting it out there, and organizing themselves.

The proper way to beat extremists is at the ballot box.

 

What if the extremists take away the process of fair elections? The underlying concern with Morsi is not that his policies suck - but that he was taking away the fundamental structures of democracy. Destroying checks and balances, seizing powers, etc.

The worst thing that could happen is for a fake-democracy to establish a foothold over several years and thus become a "legitimate" quasi-dictatorship. If the system in place wasn't going to work - and it appeared that it wasn't - then the quicker you can blow it up, the better. The more established it gets, the harder it is to dismantle.

This is basically the Egyptian people taking a mulligan. Whether they can establish a stronger Constitution with the necessary protections will be their next big test after they get out of this current revolution phase.

 

You impose the Civil Rights Act on their asses.

(gerrymanding to force a set of beliefs is nothing new, and can be worked with in a democracy. The unfortunate reality, is that it does seem most of the nation, at the moment, is very conflicted about seperation of state and religion, to say the least, but that can't be forced. Again---long-term view. Some of the Constitution-writers may have been slave-owners when they wrote that all men were held to be equal, but their descendants surely aren't.

Morsi was elected in a free and fair election. If he forced his way in on the next one instead of just seeming like he was tending that way, I would tend more to agree with you---but now we'll never know.)

 

This has for the most part been a great thread for discourse and has made my flight cancellation bearable. I agree with majors, rjd, a3po, and even sjc (Muslim thread no less!) points.

This was no Willy nilly coup and i don't even think this is democracy 2.0...more like 1.1, which is IMO, further along than what we're seeing in Palestine or Afghanistan. The truth of the matter is that democracy isn't a universal conclusion but rather a tradition built by trust, stability, and an enduring culture. Without an implicit understanding of all three by the people and its leaders, it's a democracy in name only.

We've already witnessed its failures recently with experiments of Shock Therapy in Russia and Iraq. Russia teetered back to authoritarianism with open hands after Putin disposed the oligarchs that was sucking the soul and pride of the Russian people. Iraq has suffered a series of dramatic economic setbacks as it tries to cope with several new institutional and cultural systems and practices.

On the face of it, ns is right about the coup not justifying the promised culture of democracy, but it's an idealistic victory that no one us suggesting otherwise. because we also have to consider the Egyptian peoples faith and capital on a system they've never experienced before. If this is the only example of what democracy is like, then an Egyptian Putin isn't far from justified, even if it's Mubarak in a different skin.

This will have to follow gradual phases because people don't change as quickly as technology or ideas. Remove outside direct intervention from the world police, then follow with gradual civilian integration with the military. Too soon and you'll get an elected military backed despot. nothing ever goes exactly as planned, so complaining about how the military isn't perfect is no more than a waste of breath that's already known.

And the economy....it's the economy stupid. It's why China and other Asian nations with heavy handed leaders for life have lasted for decades.

People don't care about ideas and how imperfect its execution is when they're paying 4 bucks out of the 10 they make daily for a loaf of bread.

 

on the contrary---the narrative here has always been one of the army with the people. It's high time that most realized the relationship is more like the army using the people.

I consider wide-spread killings and torture more than "isn't perfect"---but of course the narrative of accepting horrific crimes (Assad family, most tyrannies in the Middle East) in the name of repressing political Islam is an easy one to adopt.

I don't know where else there is to go with this. I recognize there are two schools of thought here---certain members here ardently believe that Islam is inherently violent and etc.

Others believe that it can be tamed. I believe in the latter, but you're certainly not going to tame extreme versions of Islam by supporting oil monarchies that prop some up, and dictatorships that beat others down through brute force.

 

Hmm i think you mistook that as some literal grand plan

 

no, i'm referring to what has been the grand plan in the area for quite some time.

 

No doubt the military would prefer an equilibrium with the most control, except as other posters here have already stated, they haven't indiscriminately fired upon people during protests, which is a promising break from your claim.

The sudden disappearance and torture of political suspects reeks of secret police tactics. No doubt that has to be addressed, but again, as others have stated, the reaction by the Egyptian people with the latest events indicates that they're becoming more active in the political process, an arena they delegated to the military, other nations, despots, and terrorists.

Your analysis has been shallow. You get a failing grade for this thread.

Where we go from here is far from certain

 

I'm not condemning the Egyptian people.

I'm condemning, and continue to condemn the Egyptian military. There is a very big difference.

Insofar as it is my claim---it is the New York Times' claim based on eyewitness accounts, some from non-Morsi supporters. You can choose to believe what you will---the military has shut down all MB media channels, and kicked out other channels. State media is run by the military.

I would very much like to see seperation of state and religion in the new Egypt---but also integration of military and civil life.

 

Report: 150 Hamas Jihadis Tunnel Into Sinai To Attack The Egyptian Army Over Muslim Brotherhood Crackdown…



Via INN:http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/169719#.UdrjA814je2

As the death toll rises in clashes between Egypt’s army and pro-Morsi protesters, Muslim Brotherhood-linked Gaza terrorists are infiltrating the Sinai to attack Egyptian army outposts.

Although the army has sealed at least 50 tunnels in the past two weeks, hundreds remain open and active under the border between Egypt and Gaza.

A senior Egyptian official told the London-based Al-Hayat newspaper on Saturday that at least 150 Izz a-Din al-Qassam operatives – members of the Gaza-based Hamas military wing – were seen heading into Sinai via the tunnels. “They were wearing uniforms associated with the military police before joining jihadists in Sinai, the source was quoted as saying.

Egyptian army forces also told the Bethlehem-based Ma’an news agency that 14 members of jihad groups were arrested in Sinai on Sunday during an operation in El-Arish. Army sources told the news agency that among those arrested was one Palestinian Authority terrorist who allegedly confessed that he intended to cooperate with other jihadists in Sinai in order to assassinate Egyptian army soldiers.

Hamas, which was started by the Muslim Brotherhood, meanwhile denounced in a statement on Monday an attack against supporters of ousted Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi, and sent condolences to the victims’ families. At least 42 people were killed and 322 wounded in an attack on protesters outside an elite army base in Cairo, Ahmed al-Ansari, deputy head of emergency services, told the AFP news agency.

 

BREAKING: White House Says It Won’t Cut Aid To Egypt – Update: Carney Refuses To Call Morsi’s Ouster A “Coup”…

It’s obvious Obama has zero influence over Egypt, so why continue to give them $1.5 billion annually?



Update: There’s no question about it, what happened was a coup. The quicker they say it the better so we can finally cut off aid to one of the most ungrateful recipients of U.S. taxpayer dollars in the world.

Via Politico:

The White House is taking its time to determine whether the overthrow of Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi was a coup because of the potential fallout from calling it one, press secretary Jay Carney said Monday.

“I’m being very clear with you … this is a complex and difficult issue with significant consequences,” Carney said during his daily briefing, the first since Egypt’s military ousted Morsi nearly a week ago. Calling the action a coup could cut off more than $1.5 billion in annual U.S. foreign aid for Egypt.

 

Egyptian Prosecutors Order Closure Of Muslim Brotherhood’s Political Wing Headquarters In Cairo After Finding Weapons Inside…



Things aren’t looking so good for the Muslim Brotherhood.

CAIRO (AFP) — Egypt’s prosecution ordered the closure of the Cairo headquarters of the Muslim Brotherhood’s Freedom and Justice Party after police found weapons inside it on Monday, a security official said.

Police found “flammable liquid, knives and arms to be used against the June 30 protests,” the official told AFP, in reference to demonstrations that saw millions take to the streets to demand the resignation of Islamist president Mohamed Morsi.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/af...docId=CNG.0e14e4b52e2d625872ef999aae5abb94.71

 

As for the praticality of the military coup---certainly, one could say that it is very favorable from a Western perspective. The problem is this rubber-coat stamp of what a democracy should be---secular, civilian oversight of the military etc.---I suffer from it somewhat as well. But it's realizing that democracy is about accepting, to a certain extent, the beliefs of the people who form it.

Sadly, people in Egypt tend very heavily to believe in the role of religion in the state---you cannot tell me a legistative election that would have seen liberal, secular figures like El Baradei crushed if they had stood, and an ultra-orthodox Islamic party elected right behind the Muslim Brotherhood has told you otherwise! I agree that liberals have a way to go before sharpening their message, but there will always be a demographic that will remain in thrall with the Islamic parties, just as to this day there are certain extreme branches of the Republican Party that stand.

Where Morsi overstepped his bounds is in trying not only to define the will of the people, but in how it would be expressed. That I recognize, and it is why I condemn Morsi as well. He did invite some of this on himself (though certainly not a military coup!)

Unfortunately, however, the founding documents will, to some extent, enshrine political Islam. No amount of resets, short of a forced military intervention and dictatorship a la Mubarak, will stop that. I mean, behind the MB is the Al Nour party, who are even worse and more extreme...and the second-most popular party.

It's time to accept that there will be warts in the process, and those warts will involve Islam, because, well, that is what quite a few of the Egyptian people believe. The MB was actually moderate in comparision to Al Nour, thank god Al Nour is no longer part of this whole thing. (one of the reasons I was very leery about the coup).

The ideal vision I think most people cling on is Turkey---but even there, there is a growing sense that this model of forced resets hasn't been ideal, and isn't anything to look up to. We have Erdogan to show for it. I dislike the man intensely, but it's a sign of maturity that the military is seen as destructive rather than constructive when it pulls a history of this---

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/07/05/f-turkey-egypt-coup.html

An intresting article on this maturation---

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/tu...urity.aspx?pageID=238&nID=50210&NewsCatID=338

 

But at that point, it might be too late. You only can act when the energy of the people is there - and that was now. You're starting from the viewpoint that a democracy was formed. I'm starting from a viewpoint that they needed a mulligan on their first attempt. To me, this is all a continuing part of the first revolution rather than being a second one.

 

Almost Two Dozen Al Jazeera Staffers Resign Over Channel’s Pro-Muslim Brotherhood Bias…



The Goracle unavailable for comment.

Via Gulf News:http://gulfnews.com/news/region/egypt/al-jazeera-staff-resign-after-biased-coverage-1.1206924

The news channel Al Jazeera Mubasher Misr saw 22 members of staff resign on Monday in Egypt over what they alleged was coverage that was out of sync with real events in Egypt.

Anchor Karem Mahmoud announced that the staff had resigned in protest against what he called “biased coverage” of the events in Egypt by the Qatari broadcaster.

Mahmoud said that the resignations had been brought about by a perceived lack of commitment and Al Jazeera professionalism in media coverage, adding that “the management in
Doha provokes sedition among the Egyptian people and has an agenda against Egypt and other Arab countries.”

Mahmoud added that the management used to instruct each staff member to favour the Muslim Brotherhood.

 

Northside Storm should just stop posting. It's a never-ending embarrassment for him. I feel sorry when I read his desperate attempts to sound like he has a clue of anything.

 

The mulligan on the first attempt, if history serves as a guide, will not end well. Look at Turkey, how many coups were needed? Once the military steps in on a democratically elected government, you're changing an entire dynamic.

I'm all for second chances, and sure, MB is less popular now, but what's to say that they or heaven forbid, al-Nour won't play a similar role?

Al-Nour was pushing for even more radical changes to the Constitution. The simple matter is that you cannot just parse over democratic choices. This democracy will have warts, adding military coups to that pile doesn't help.