To be fair, Dwight can WIN in LA. But it won't be "his team" with Kobe still there for at least 2 more years (the time Kobe already said he wants to play). And it won't be with pounding the ball inside under Dantoni. And there will be more media pressure on him. Houston offers Dwight a smilar winning model but with Dwight being 1a/1b focus with Harden, feeding the low post and working pick and rolls and less pressure and will be loved by the town. Those might be the real motivating factors.
Basketball decision and winning are not necessarily synonymous. We've also read over the years, from various sources, that Dwight really just wants to be liked. That has come from unreliable to reliable ones. I imagine he would love to win, but he also really wants to be liked. I don't know if he wants to be "the man" or not, but doing things to appease people is practically synonymous w/ "Dwight Howard" nowadays. People really don't change that often (and his LAL season WAS a nightmare, from every perspective -- not just basketball reasons). I can believe Dwight wants to win. In fact, I ASSUME he wants to win. But I also assume he's pretty immature and wants everyone to like him; to appease everyone. And that means feeling as if people DO like him is rather appealing. I don't find the notion that LAL wooing him w/ the factors cyberx mentioned being very convincing for him that illogical or absurd. They sound rather reasonable if it applied to almost any player, but in particular Dwight. Who doesn't find being wooed and made important amazing? That fickle Dwight might be momentarily swayed by that? I would expect as much out of almost anyone. And as far as Phil Jackson goes, that is definitely a basketball decision. Dwight wants to win, but that doesn't mean somehow his definition of 'how to win' is the same as yours. Maybe in his mind, getting Phil Jackson more involved, or better yet, as a coach + more touches in the paint, etc. IS the way to win. Maybe joining Harden w/ McHale in Houston is not the best way to win in his opinion (even if you think it is). There are some implicit assumptions you're making here that aren't necessarily true. Certainly not true enough where alternatives are so easily discarded (or discredited).
But what does he want in a team? "I want to win; I've done everything else," he said. "I just want to win." ... "I'll get those opportunities later; it's all about winning now," he said. ... "I want to see what each opportunity offers," Howard said. "I want to see how people plan on winning." ... It was all good, Howard singing and rolling with every trash jab, although admitting he no longer intends to be a people-pleaser. "I can't do it anymore," he said. "I can't please everybody." http://www.latimes.com/sports/baske...-dwight-howard-20130602,0,6650040,full.column Yes, if Phil Jackson were the coach, I'd buy that as a possibility. But not in this "unofficial consultant" role. From Jeanie Buss, this week: "My message to Lakers fans is Phil is a part of the organization because of me," said Buss, who's the Lakers' executive vice president of business operations and serves as the team's governor. "He's part of my life and part of my family. He's always in Laker world, no matter if he has an official position or not." http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/e...s-a-consultant-role-with-the-lakers-right-now In other words, Phil's connection to the Lakers is Jeanie... just as it was this year, during the nightmare. Phil making an occasional phone call to chat with Mitch Kupchak isn't going to change Mike D'Antoni's coaching philosophy and it's not going to change the culture of the organization. If he becomes coach, GM or president? Maybe. Get back to me when that happens.
Well right, if Phil Jackson is just an 'informal consultant,' I would imagine that doesn't mean much to Howard (or shouldn't I hope), but we have no idea what is even being said by LAL "wooing" Howard. Maybe they're saying PJ will come coach; maybe he'll take up an official role in the FO, as Kupchak even said he is currently not ruling out PJ taking on a more official role in the near future. Hmm... So yes, Howard wants to win -- I never doubted that, just his priorities on it. But even if we assume it is his #1 priority now, which is a fair assumption, that again can be satisfied by LAL saying he'll be the #1 option; he'll get more touches; he'll get PJ in some role that he prefers (and MDA's system gets thrown out); he'll get to pick which star LAL will target next offseason, etc. Maybe that is exactly what Dwight thinks will lead to him winning. How LAL plans to help D12 win.
Why did he ever leave Orlando, then? If what he thinks will lead to him winning is unlimited post touches and influence over personnel decisions, that's exactly what he had in Orlando. The logical guess is that he's like 99% of NBA stars, who correctly think the avenue to winning is by pairing up with other stars. It's highly likely that James Harden is superior to whoever LA gets next offseason, both in age and quality. Better yet, if he goes to Houston, Dwight doesn't have to waste a third consecutive year of the prime of his career and risk the plan failing (ask Dallas about waiting for a max FA in a year). Furthermore, MDA's system isn't getting thrown out unless MDA gets thrown out. And if the Lakers are willing to dump MDA, they'd do it by July 1. Unless that happens, and there are no indications that it will, then to assume the Lakers are "gaining momentum" seems silly. Compare the factors cyberx listed to Dwight's stated criteria. The only way you could convince yourself that it adds up to the Lakers "gaining momentum" and the Rockets "getting played" is if you're a diehard Laker fan. Which, conveniently, he is.
Who says he will win anything here with just him and harden anyways. All dwight has to do is wait for nash gasol and kobe to come off the books and free agents will come. AKA Kevin Love
You assume almost just as much as the other side, so I don't see how saying they are illogical makes much sense. Why did he leave ORL? Because the team sucked and he had soured the relationships there. LAL is not ORL. Not only does he love LA (as he's said many times), but the franchises are not even comparable. ORL saying we can give you touches, coaches, etc. plus a cast to support your is just not as credible as the Lakers franchise saying the same thing. They could both say the exact same words and LAL would win out 9 out 10 times for 99% of the players. And right, most players would think pairing up w/ stars is the way to go. LAL attracts stars like a black hole. It is highly likely that Harden is better than anyone LAL gets next season? Okay...that sounds like a matter of opinion, and sort of an assumption. Who knows who they will attract? Heck, let's even say you're right and odds are in your favor that LAL cannot attract someone as good as Harden next yr -- the franchise is still known for winning and eventually attracting stars (either through trade or FA, they seem to get what they want eventually), and all it has to be is CONVINCING and REASONABLE to Dwight. It needn't be foolproof or a guarantee, nor does it need to convince you or be reasonable to you. Since we don't know Dwight's mind, the closest we can get is an objective prong (like in law), which asks what a reasonable person would do/think. I certainly think it is reasonable that LAL could get the pieces it needs to pair Dwight with another star in 2014 or even 2015, either through FA or trade. And saying LAL is gaining momentum doesn't mean much else besides they are gaining momentum. Did cyberx say Houston was being played and used? Or was that just reactions from some GARM posters? I'm looking at the factors and comparing them to Dwight wanting to win -- if LAL is telling him he gets to pick future stars or the direction of the franchise, or that he'll be number 1 (if he wants it), or that they will get PJ back in and have begun 'fighting' to convince PJ to return to coach...I could easily see LAL "gaining momentum" by appealing to things that Dwight very well could reasonably equate to building a winning team/opportunity while staying in LA...getting his cake and eating it, too. I feel as if you're trying to read too much into cyberx's comments. They could be wrong, they could be right. But you're so adamant about them definitely being wrong that it sort of becomes a tad ironic or hypocritical lol. I think one could very reasonably find cyberx's comments on this topic reasonable, even with all things considered. That doesn't mean your take isn't reasonable -- it is as well. They don't have to be mutually exclusive (well, the facts probably do, but not the ability for one to find the two options reasonable).
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>After talks failed again on Friday, Doc Rivers will no longer pursue the Clippers coaching job, league source tells Y!</p>— Adrian Wojnarowski (@WojYahooNBA) <a href="https://twitter.com/WojYahooNBA/statuses/348181572291268608">June 21, 2013</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> Hello, CP3.
Let's agree that it will be hard to prove or disprove his posts, since few people will actually have insider status, ok? Having said that, doesn't the fact that he is semi-verified and probably placed with an agency indicate that he has useful info, or at least info that we don't get elsewhere? Why blame him if posters go crazy and start drawing the wrong conclusions? On the Fegan issue, there weren't a lot of national media who particularly emphasized that angle. Cyberx was the only one I knew of who did. There may be more, but the point is that Cyberx provided info that wasn't well-emphasized. We're not calling cyberx and insider because of one or two posts - we're calling him and insider bc he he's said he's with a sports agency, has said specific things most others have not (whether proven or disproven), flat out said he knows clutch, AND HASN'T BEEN BANNED. He may only be reporting the tip of the iceberg, and many may have reached the same conclusion, but all the same it's still interesting to hear. You seem to have a problem with cyberx being an LA fan - you've mentioned this in many posts. But frankly, as an LA fan he was telling us how much more Dwight was liking HOU now, even that HOU might be in frontunner status (thereby possibly leaving his poor Lakers behind). So he's posted info that's both been music to our ears and info that we disliked to hear. Seems fair to me, hmm? You seem to be also overly fixated on Dwight's "I want to win." I'd love that too, but I'll believe it when I see it. It may prove true, but it may not. Cyberx/s info about the Lakers having success in showing him the love makes perfect sense. It doesn't mean it will win the day. Dwight may be swayed by it, or he may decide, no, I want to win. That doesn't make cyberx's post false. If you think Dwight won't be affected by having the Lakers put on a full court press of adulation and love, I think you're being optimistic. No one is immune from that. And with Phil saying, I've got 11 rings and I am now a part of this leadership, and yes next year is bad but I'll get you to the promised land in years 2-5, you don't think that someone who otherwise loves LA and wants to be in the largest market can't rationalize to himself that, yes, maybe the organization that been a contender for DECADES might get me to the promised land if I wait one more year? So Dwight staying might be completely consistent, in HIS mind, with staying in LA if he thinks (1) the direction is changing and (2) they're going to build around him and give him the keys. Add that to LA lifestyle, LA marketing, having Jackson in a semi-Riley capacity, not letting down 6M people, an extra guaranteed year, and maybe he might say HOU is better short term but it's close enough I can still win in LA. It does not come down to ONLY basketball. That may what he thinks is the number one thing, but you can't KNOW he won't change his mind. Or, more likely, that he won't convince himself that, LONG TERM, it's better to be in LA if he can sacrifice one year, since the Lakers have been winners for so long. HOU is the better situation RIGHT NOW, but I could see LA being as good in the long run. So if Dwight takes that view, it would be very logical to think that he can be swayed by Lakers brass, particularly if Phil is now involved and LA is making him promises that the kingdom will be his, so to speak. Also recall that after the Lakers were eliminated Dwight mentioned he hoped to be in LA. That implies there are things that they can do to sway him, such as coming up with a good plan for the future (e.g., including Phil, emphasizing the big man, etc.). I don't know if LA will succeed, but to dismiss the possibility that he isn't excited about LA kowtowing to him just bc he said winning is the most important thing is being short-sighted.
Love it the Clippers apparently screwed this up over a first round pick. If you're Paul has to be thinking to himself, do I really want to be a part of this bumbling organization and idiot owner? Come to Houston Paul and you'll be an immediate favorite for the title.
By this logic, why weren't the Lakers first on his list? Why did he have Brooklyn and Dallas ahead? Basically, your case comes down to "we're the Lakers and we'll always be OK because we're the Lakers". Oh, and we have LA. But he had Brooklyn (Deron) and Dallas (reigning champ, plus Dirk) ahead. Why? Because he thought they had better chances to win. http://www.sbrforum.com/nba-basketball/free-picks/nba-betting-2014-nba-free-agency-war-a-31398/ Who on this list is better than Harden? There's LeBron, who isn't going to LA, and that's basically it. Maybe Carmelo, but he's unlikely to leave NY and he'll be 30. The key word you used is "eventually". Sure, at some point in the next few years, the stars will align and they'll build another contender. But it doesn't look good right now. When Magic retired in '91, it took until the Shaq-Kobe offseason of '96 to resurrect the Lakers as viable. Dwight has already wasted two years of the prime of his career, and he knows it. He's not willing to wait an indefinite period of time over a vague possibility. He wants to win immediately. I'm making assumptions based on Dwight's stated criteria. You're making assumptions based on wild theories and hypotheticals. You're arguing just to argue. There's a difference. He specifically said it looked as if Houston was "getting played". His words. Oh, and "have begun fighting" for Phil to return? LOL. Dwight will never have more leverage than he does right now, and he knows it. It takes all of one phone call to relieve MDA of his duties. It's not a complex procedure. The idea that Dwight will buy into the Lakers "maybe firing D'Antoni down the road", when they're unwilling to do it even with Howard having a gun to their head, is just silly.
I really hope Dwight comes here. I think he wants to win and win now. I also think that a reasonable person, subjected to a full court press from the Lakers - with visions of how he will be the focus, how the Lakers are almost always contending, how Phil may move to some front office role, the 2014 cap space situation, the fact that free agents gravitate to LA - can reach a rational conclusion the he can win in LA too (or that it's close enough that life style, extra year, marketing, etc. can tip the scales. I can completely see a scenario where Dwight stays in LA and he says "LA is built on championships; I believe in Mitch; I believe in Phil; they are proven winners. I think we will contend next year with Kobe back at the halfway mark, and we were 28-12 at the end of last year and we were decimated by injuries in the playoffs. I think, long term, LA is the best place to win." Do I agree with him? No. But can I argue that is not a rational conclusion? No. So cyberx's news is NOT illogical. It makes perfect sense and was in fact something I was concerned about. It's like a guy who wants a long good marriage. He should go for someone hwo is attractive, steady and dependable and supports him, but maybe he convinces himself that the hot model will change her ways for him and be the perfect wife and he chooses her instead. Just bc Dwight insists he cares only about winning doesn't mean HOU is a lock (and even if he cares about winning and doesn't think it's the Lakers, he could also try to force his way to Clippers in exchange for Blake Griffin by using the threat of signing outright with HOU).
it wasnt over the pick - the clippers offered the second 1st round pick but where they screwed up was that they made it was too obvious that the Rivers and Garnett deals though separate were contingent on each other. If one wasnt completed the other wouldn't and thats illegal in the CBA - thats why the league said no. they couldn't restructure the deal any other way to make it seem that the two deals weren't contingent on each other though.
A marriage is just what you said: long. You don't marry someone with an understanding that you'll look elsewhere in 3-5 years. Sure, over the course of time, the Lakers will figure things out and build another contender. But Dwight's signing away the prime of his career. It's about NOW. And if the Lakers have another five-year drought, like they did between Magic and Shaq, or even a two-year drought, like they did between Shaq and Gasol, that's not good enough. The idea that Phil "may move into some front office position" is bull****. WHAT IS STOPPING THEM FROM DOING THAT RIGHT NOW? Dwight will never have more leverage than he does at this very moment. Never. They still aren't making the move. They had a coaching vacancy just eight months ago, contacted Phil... and didn't offer him the job. Dwight would have to be the biggest idiot in the world to put any stock in Phil eventually getting a legitimate position after they A) didn't give him the coaching job and B) didn't give him a front office job now, even with it clear that Dwight wants it. The idea that the Lakers can "contend next year" is not something any reasonable person would conclude. Kobe will be a year older and coming off one of the most serious injuries a basketball player can sustain. Gasol is aging and coming off German knee treatment. And then they'll have to completely rip apart that roster to try and rebuild on the fly via free agency, with a list that has a whopping one name (LeBron, and he's not coming) better than James Harden. The only possible scenario is if Dwight thinks LA is "good enough" that the outside factors -- extra year, marketing, lifestyle, being liked -- push LA over the top. And he's gone out of his way, time and time again, to say that those will not be the priority. At this point, I think it's best to take him at his word. I didn't say Houston was a lock. I merely said the idea that the Lakers were gaining momentum, and Houston was getting played, given the evidence, was absurd. And yes, as you said, the Clippers are a scenario that makes sense from a basketball perspective. Not sure what you're debating with this.
1) Plenty of people said he did not want to follow in the footsteps of Shaq, and no matter how much he put BKN or wherever ahead, he okay'd LA at the end of the day. Lots say Fegan fought for that hard; I have no idea what their private conversations were -- do you? And saying he may not have had LA #1 on his list last yr does not mean that much...Houston was not a blip on his radar then, and I'm sure Harden was not dying to come here. Things change. Clearly he didn't love what LAL offered him last season, but ended up loving the city itself. How much does that matter? No idea. The point is, LA has more clout than ORL, for myriad reasons. What are you exactly arguing here? 2) Sort of assuming who is or isn't going somewhere. I would never have thought Dwight would end up in LA a yr ago. It is a stretch, but there are enough people on that list to make LA a desirable location. You yourself said that stars want other stars -- a yr is a long time from now. LBJ might not leave Miami if the decision to do so were today...but what if Bosh continued to suck it up and DWade gets badly injured/declines even more as his knees give out? Trades are very hard to predict a yr out as well. These things are much too turbulent to guess -- if it were so easy, everyone would be a GM and could just 'gg' the nba a season out. 3) You're not making assumptions on Dwight's stated criteria. All you are saying is he stated that he wants to win. Okay...did he somehow lay out specific steps that winning is = I want to be paired up w/ James Harden right now? Or even more broadly, winning is = I want to pair up w/ another young star right now! You are assuming Dwight prefers whatever Houston has going on over whatever LA can offer. That's nice and all, but is still an assumption. If anyone is here arguing to argue, it is you. I've been saying both are very reasonable possibilities, so one cannot (and should not) completely disregard something when there exists lots of good reasons why it could still be true. If that maxim escapes you, then I guess we don't have much else to discuss. 4) That is just cyberx's opinion. He isn't saying "x source told me that Dwight said he's playing Houston" or "Dwight's camp and agent saying Houston being used"...in which case, we would be discussing something completely different. Him saying he thinks it is beginning to look like Houston is being played is...well what he thinks it looks like. Cool for him. That's all there is to read into it. 5) Finally, what I said was LAL could be gaining momentum if they are telling Dwight they are trying to woo PJ. Remember, PJ has to AGREE. Dwight feels good if LAL tells him, hey we are TRYING to get PJ to come coach -- we're in talks w/ him because we know it matters to you. And Dwight could be like, awesome, keep it up -- you guys are gaining momentum (obviously he would not say that). If it falls through, they'd lose momentum. Shocker. And it isn't about firing MDA; it is about replacing him w/ someone Howard wants. Firing MDA is easy, but if PJ refuses to coach, that is only halfway there and LAL is left in an awkward position. No one said LAL has Dwight LOCKED DOWN. I'm not even sure what you're arguing for anymore, to be honest.
Again, I don't see why LAL promising these things to Dwight doesn't mean they aren't gaining momentum. You keep acting as if PJ is an item that cannot decide things on his own. LAL has to convince him to come back too. They can't tell Dwight, hey PJ will come back in x capacity, before PJ actually agrees to do so. But telling Dwight they are in talks w/ him and talks look good and that they are trying...trying means a lot to people, Dwight included. It may not mean enough in the end if it fails, but sure, at this moment they could be gaining momentum. And that is just one example of something LAL could be telling Dwight. I don't find it that absurd at all. And we aren't arguing whether cyberx said sources told him Dwight was playing Houston. That was his commentary/opinion. It is like dicta. It is rather irrelevant in our discussion.
You three continuing arguing. Cyberz is da God! And what da God sez, it goez! Cyberz is not da God! Blah blah blah __________________________________________ After talks failed again on Friday, the Boston Celtics' Doc Rivers will no longer pursue the Los Angeles Clippers' coaching job, league sources told Yahoo! Sports. Rivers will make a choice between returning to the Celtics for his 10th season as coach or leaving for television, sources told Yahoo! Sports. "The deal is completely dead," a source directly involved in the talks said Friday. The ramifications for the Clippers could be significant, because free agent All-Star guard Chris Paul had badly wanted Rivers as his coach and had pushed management to complete a deal with Boston, sources said. The Clippers raised the idea of a future second-round draft pick with Boston on Friday, sources said, but Celtics general manager Danny Ainge had been clear throughout the discussions that it would take a first-round pick to free Rivers of the three years left on his Celtics deal.
Until tomorrow, when talks resume again because CP3 threatens to walk. This whole situation is getting ridiculous. I know Stern has intervened but Sterling is proving worthless as an owner. Maybe Stern feels like he already gave them a blessing when he refused the Gasol, Paul, etc. trade.
