[CBA Circumvention Article] Question(s) for Bima or any attorney that can decipher legal docs

I was NOT SURE the outline of his suggestion. Just wanted it clarified.

This here is what I THOUGHT it was. Though it seems a bit like he's just trying to get the answer he wants to hear. (Or doesnt want it to be illegal circumvention). But gotta even understand the hypothetical first before answering it or defending it.

He said:
"trade multiple of our current power forwards and our 2014 first round draft pick for a 2013 lottery pick"
- That reads like its PFs + 2014 1st rd pk for a 2013 1st rd pick RIGHT THERE. Which says Houston IMMEDIATELY GETS A 2013 pick and they HAVE NO 2014 cuz it got TRADED to OTHER team.

then later he said:
"send us the player that they drafted in the lottery of 2013 that is on their roster unsigned for our 2014 first rounder"
- But the way he said it, its like they already SENT their 2014 1st rd pk the FIRST time. So how are Rockets sending 2014 1st rounders they dont have in possession? And its the Rockets who actually got the 2013 pick lol

But they way you presented it puts it together. The Rockets are saying take our tractor and weedeater for your lawnmower. But you will get your lawnmower back later, just give us another weedeater or something close later, but the tractor is yours.

And no I have little clue if something like that qualifies as circumvention, though I'm kinda curious myself. Early responses strongly suggest it is. On the REAL LIFE tone apart from the rules, it does seem a lot of moving parts.

 

Let me see if I can clarify what he exactly wants:

1. He wants the Rockets to sign a 2013 lottery pick.
2. He also wants the Rockets to sign DH12.

Therefore, he suggested if the Rockets, with the help of other team (team X), can make a deal:

1. Trade the PFs to team X for nothing that created enough cap space to sign DH12 which would be Trob+Tjones + 2014 pick for nothing.

2. Team X selects the lottery pick player that the Rockets want at draft night.

3. Sign DH12.

4. Team X trades the lottery pick player to the the Rockets for nothing.

5. Rockets will be above the cap and qualify for room MLE.

Mission accomplished, but he wants to know whether these steps considered as circumvention.

If I am wrong, apologize for all parties involved.

 

Hi shroopy2,

The scenario i posted was what basketballholic and i originally were discussing on the garm last week. Basically, he is really hot on this 2013 draftee named cody zeller (heck he could be cody zeller for all i know). He's trying to find ways we can draft him without taking the cap hit and ruining our chances to sign Dwight.

I shouldnt have used his old scenario because it seems he has come up with different scenarios to get a 2013 first rounder that doesn't count against our cap until after we sign dwight. I've given up trying to follow his circumvention scenarios. I think when it boils down to it, the league wont allow it cause the flood gates will open. Moreover, what team is going to help us circumvent league salary cap rules so we can sign dwight howard and this cody zeller kid.

 

Dude, I had you answer those two questions of mine in order to see if you would describe circumvention by yourself....which is exactly what you did.

here...

Waiting until after signing Howard to "Extract a [2013] lottery pick back for DMo and TRob" who were presumably traded in June, would be a future trade arranged under the table.

That is circumvention. The league has complete authority to block that trade.

 

You can't split a trade into two parts so that you can sign a player before you take the cap hit from your half of the trade. That's crystal clear circumvention.

What you're saying is that we should trade players for a draft pick but not receive that draft pick until after we sign Dwight so that that pick doesn't take up cap room yet. There's no chance in hell the league would allow that. Furthermore, almost no teams with enough cap room to take DMO and TRob for nothing would trade a lottery pick for those two and help us net Dwight.

 

Question: If I do this maneuverer to circumvent the cap impacts is that circumvention?

 

Question: If I don't sign Howard, is it OK if I ask for TRob and DMo back, because I'll need some PFs, afterall. Or do I still have to consummate the Cody Zeller part of the trade at that point?

 

Do you see any scenario that the Rox deal Asik for assets and enough additional cap room to potentially sign Howard outright? (This could include a high enough pick for a stash (Saric?) or Waiters and the two 2s or or or any good asset including the cap space?)

Thanks, BT.

 

I see. So its a bit of cleverly disguised Cody Zeller In 2013 Campaign.

Apart from that - now talking IN REAL LIFE terms, not about the rules:

Spoiler

• Keep in mind IF the Rockets acquire Howard, their DRAFT pick will BE LOW. And the other team will KNOW THAT.
  
  Meaning IF the other team values the DRAFT pick as much as the players, the other team helping Houston get Howard will be working DIRECTLY AGAINST THEMSELVES. They're enabling their own future pick to be suckier by helping Howard.
  
  (Rough Ex: Houston in total deals 2014 #26-32 pk + Robinson/R White for 2013 pk #8.) The other team would have be VERY high on Robinson and other players they're getting back. Or they would have to be VERY LOW on the 2013 available draft pool.
  
  
• Its possible to have that. The other team MIGHT think Robinson and/or Motiejunas-whoever are equal or better to whoever's at #8. (Rockets did trade #8 Rudy Gay + Stromile Swift for Shane Battier) but would have to be really lucky an under the cap team with a good lottery pick would want that. Plus the other team would be adding a little to THEIR payroll for the chance at Robinson + Royce White salary dump
  
  
• Then maybe Houston doesnt even want to do so much gutting of their own PFs. Its not like Omer Asik + Greg Smith is a PF tandem thats a good fit by Howard.
  
  (Then would YOU give up Cody Zeller for Robinson & Royce White?)
  
  
• All in all, the OTHER TEAM would have to LOVE Robinson + Motiejunas + T Jones + Royce White to even make it happen. Because their draft pick from Rockets is gonna be poopoo. Is THAT enough FOR THEM to try to circumvent rules and get in trouble for?

No wonder he doesnt want to talk trades and just the rules. Because its convoluted long shots to BEGIN with even BEFORE considering the legalities. But will credit the creativeness

 

I'm sure there are several scenarios in which that might happen, but I cannot think of them now and do not have access to the information necessary to know if the Rockets (or the other team) would agree to such trades.

I know this thread has devolved into a "basketballholic-bashing thread", but the guy is VERY creative with his ideas. He's given me food for thought on multiple occasions.

Most notably, he was the first on this BBS (to my knowledge) to run the numbers on the Aaron Brooks signing and to "put 2 and 2 together" on a possible connection to the Thomas Robinson trade. While that may simply be a coincidence--and I doubt anyone could ever prove that the two transactions were linked--I've got to give him credit for pointing this out.

Even with his flaws, basketballholic is an asset to the BBS. I may get ticked at him from time to time, but the guy is very smart and creative and knows his CBA stuff for the most part.

 

Thread reported to the authorities.

 

Right. Its an interesting topic or I wouldnt be talking in it. I'm not bashing him (don't even "know him").

The only thing I was critical of was him not clarifying his hypothetical to make it easy after I asked him, and so I had to do it on my own lol. Thats just cuz he maybe got ahead of himself. (I know people personally who do that, not a big deal). Though, he asked if 2-part "future deals" are legal. But the WAY he MENTIONED the deal - made it look like an immediate STRAIGHT SWAP. He coulda made the "separate" contingent part look more apparent. But its all clear now

But I don't know the rules - If the deal works, what do I care. Since it'd be HELPING the team get a lottery pick and an MLE and max player lol.

 

No worries. I wasn't trying to criticize you. It was more of a defense of him as an overall quality member of the ClutchFans community, despite the criticism he's received from many (including myself).

I happen to think the proposal could be deemed a circumvention of the CBA by the league office, mostly because the league's authority is RIDICULOUSLY broad in this regard. Go back and look at Hi Mana's posts in the thread, as I think he nailed why the proposal probably wouldn't work.

 

Bima is nothing but a thug. Not sure why you want his help.








































:grin:
j/k

 

OK, thanks.

 

Just want to point out that I wasn't bashing basketballholic. Seems like a good dude. Was just having fun with him in the thread.