His side of the story matches up well with the evidence. What else is there to say? You seem to have some dispute about how he got knocked to the ground.... and that is about it... except that you don't think Zimmerman's injuries were serious enough either. Unless Zimmerman is telling the truth, we will never know what happened because the only other substantial witness is dead.
There are other witnesses that claim that Zimmerman was on top of Martin. Phone records and a witness that says that TM was on the phone and worried about being followed and didn't initiate the confrontation. That would not match up with Zimmerman's story. Zimmerman himself has changed his story. So for you to dismiss any evidence against Zimmerman and presume all the evidence supporting Zimmerman is correct and then act like it's a fact that TM assaulted Zimmerman is premature. It's far from presuming someone's innocent until proven guilty. You are more than free to choose to dismiss and believe whatever evidence you want, but just don't do that and act like what you're stating is fact. It isn't. It's only your guess as to what might have happened.
Which witness was this? The one down at the end of the block? The eye witnesses have been sketchy. There are eye witnesses that contradict each other... or they both could have wrestled top to bottom. Either way, Zimmerman was definitely on bottom at once point. You're certainly leading with the phone call. She was not on the phone at the time the altercation took place, only leading up to the conflict.
Yes. That's what I've been saying the whole time. There are witnesses that contradict each other and their testimony needs the examination of a trial. She was on the phone when she says someone came up and asked a question and then she heard a sound that could have been a shove, or strike and the call ended. Cell phone records back up the timing of what she claims. I'm not saying that Zimmerman definitely did start the fight. I'm not saying Martin definitely did start the fight. I'm saying that I'd like to see all the evidence and statements undergo examination and scrutiny in a trial before forming a definite opinion about what happened. I think it's premature for people to judge either side definitely innocent or guilty at this point.
Law enforcement would have been much more forceful in the initial phases of this mess. They would have stopped Martin and questioned him. Zimmerman's not doing this distances his behavior from that of law enforcement. It seems that what led to the killing was Martin going for Zimmerman's gun-- according to GZ. Is there anyone to dispute that? Is that implausible? I continue to state it because Martin is accountable for his behavior choices. There are undoubtedly things he could have done to de-escalate the situation. Going to another door is one. Hell, if he walks up and rings a doorbell he will look, to Zimmerman, like he is an expected guest. If the homeowner won't let you in, ask him to call the cops. But Zimmerman observed him and reported on him "checking out houses" in a suspicious manner. I think Martin was just ambling carelessly home and a tragedy ensued. Actually using "over-zealous" was a concession on my part to those who think he went cowboy. Zimmerman lives in the neighborhood and was a formal part of the neighborhood watch organization yet you say he should not have been there? Maybe Martin went further with this than he should have but I don't see that as a crime. I'm no lawyer but I don't see a crime that he committed-- if the facts as he asserted are not controverted by the evidence. Even if they are, that evidence would have to tell a very clear tale of what happened to convict him of another crime because there are very few witnesses.
That goes without saying for every post here. We are just postulating about what seems to have happened based on the evidence and rumors of evidence.
You didn't need to correct what I wrote since I never claimed that it was certain that the fight was initiated by GZ. What you said is correct. So why are some people acting like it's a fact that TM assaulted GZ and initiated the physical confrontation? That is something I thought you yourself did. If not, then fine, I was wrong.
That goes both ways. Zimmerman was responsible for his behavior as well. It would have de-escalated if Zimmerman had done what the dispatcher said and not followed Martin. However, at least in part because of Zimmerman's choice to not do that, he killed an unarmed teen. If you're a black teen going up to a strange house in the dark may not be the best move. Or he probably had reason to feel that way. He also may have believed that since he wasn't doing anything wrong he shouldn't have to do anything out of the ordinary.
Did Trayvon's father live with is fiancee... in that neighborhood? Was that fiancee black? Of course Zimmerman was responsible and I've said that many times. I have also said, though, that I don't see his errors in judgment as criminal. Both of these guys made choices that zig-zagged into a terrible outcome.
But the correction serves us all well because we are all just expressing our opinion about a mysterious tragedy that occurred in the dark of night to which there were very few witnesses. We tend to express our opinions as facts with an occasional qualifier thrown in. I'm tempted to read back through the whole thread and find somewhere that you've convicted Zimmerman... but I won't. Not that there is anything wrong with that!
I agree, true law enforcement would have and should have taken more direct steps. But Zimmerman going against normal neighborhood watch practices and ignoring the 911 "don't need you to do that" and instead continuing to follow Martin diminished if not prevented law enforcement from doing the above. Key: according to Zimmerman. And his killing Martin took away the one person who could best dispute that, though there are reports of witness reports. Again, expecting Martin to go to the doors of houses in the area does not seem realistic... he wasn't from that neighborhood, and as a teen African American I think it would be less likely he'd start knocking at doors at night. And again... we are basing the checking out houses in a suspicious manner on Zimmerman's story, but the official report, plus even your own acknowledgement was that you have a lost teen, in a dark neighborhood that he isn't familiar with, most likely just trying to find his way back from the 7/11. Doing nothing wrong. And being followed. If Zimmerman had not went beyond neighborhood watch practices and ignored the 911 operator and instead allowed law enforcement to do their jobs he would not have been there (the "shouldn't have been there"). So... you went from "I don't think the facts of the case support a Murder in Second Degree verdict" to "I don't believe Zimmerman is guilty of any crime."
Frankly I'm not sure how they exonerated Martin from any suspicion other than he had snacks instead of burglary tools in his possession. Again, I think he was just ambling home. He was reported by GZ as suspicious. Remember, that is why the police were summoned. Apparently it was Trayvon who shortened the timeline of events. GZ was seemingly just watching things. What crime then?
Seems Zimmerman isn't the only one with truthiness challenges... http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/02/18702011-george-zimmermans-attorneys-apologize-for-mischaracterizing-evidence?lite
There's no proof that Zimmerman continued to follow Martin. That just fits the story that those who believed Martin looked like a 12 year old at the time of his death or that a hoodie and or skittles had a damn thing to do with anything Then there are these people who spoke before lynch mobs started intimidating people.... http://abcnews.go.com/US/cops-witnesses-back-george-zimmermans-version/story?id=16371852 Witnesses, whose names were redacted from the report, also lent support to Zimmerman's version of what happened. "He witnesses a black male, wearing a dark colored 'hoodie' on top of a white or Hispanic male and throwing punches 'MMA (mixed martial arts) style,'" the police report of the witness said. "He then heard a pop. He stated that after hearing the pop, he observed the person he had previously observed on top of the other person (the male wearing the hoodie) laid out on the grass." A second witness described a person on the ground with another straddling him and throwing punches. The man on the bottom was yelling for help, the witness told police. The documents state that Zimmerman can be heard yelling for help 14 times on a 911 call recorded during the fight. He was in a gated community. Most gated communities have some sort of security or a watch patrol. If he thought that this was some random person trying to assualt him, he should have hung up from his girlfriend and called 9-11 and don't throw out the distrust of police crutch. Zimmerman stated his reason for following Martin to the dispatcher. That is evidence to support that he was concerned with Martin's behavior that night. Who said the teen was lost? When did that become a fact? Martin had been suspended from school 3 times in 7 months. He obviously has issues with authority. His own mother couldn't handle him so she sent him to his Dad to handle after he got suspended the 3rd time. Zimmerman stated that he stopped following Martin after being advised against it by the Dispatcher. Zimmerman said went to get a building number and ran in to Martin on the way back to his SUV. That's a possibility that many of you are refusing to accept as many of the Martin supporters claim Zimmerman was still in the SUV when advised not to follow Martin.
No. I believe that Zimmerman's testimony states that he was unable to locate Martin after he had run and so was returning to his truck-- maybe to go home and leave it to the police! During that time Martin surprised him from behind
Manslaughter. Assault with a deadly weapon. Discharging a firearm in the city limits. Take your pick.
That's what I recall from reading his testimony about a year ago. I'm virtually certain he was not sitting in his truck and Martin pulled him out... as you opined.
