Did the Bulls fans question Michael Jordan's greatness?

......holy ****, you guys are hypocritical. Awards don't matter until Hakeem wins them, then they're everything. 2000 Shaq dominates Hakeem in all the stats categories, comes one vote away from winning an unanimous MVP...but he didn't win DPOY, so therefore that makes him worse than Hakeem's great seasons. Jordan didn't win DPOY in 91-93, and Lebron didn't in 13, so I guess that means Hakeem actually did have the GOAT peak.

He didn't care in the regular season. Hence the 2001 Lakers, which had a by their standards a pedestrian record, and lost 1 game in the playoffs when Shaq got serious and utterly destroyed Mutombo in the Finals. Similar things in 2002, where it nearly bit them in the ass, and in 2003, when it actually did. But it signifies to Shaq's immense talent - he didn't care all that much, but is still a top 10 player ever. But he could have been the GOAT.

 

Playing good defense against Mutumbo isn't really saying that much. That's not playing defense against a real offensive threat.

I don't think anyone was arguing that Shaq didn't have a lot of talent.

Hakeem had not only a winning record, but a dominant record against MJ when MJ was at his prime. Hakeem also dominated great centers in their prime.

You try hard to dismiss defensive claims as not really being that important. Defense especially stopping an opponents inside game is incredibly important. It's said that defense wins championships. Hakeem's defense was good enough to not only stop the opponents inside game, but he could stop the ball on the outside as well. He got steals, blocks, and actually altered the other team's game plan with his defense.

 

Keep in mind that Shaq was also a liability in end of game situations with his inability to make foul shots.

He sucked so badly at it they coined a phrase...Hack-a-Shaq. They never had any such phrase for Hakeem.

 

I didn't say anything about defense. But when you look back at Robinson vs. Olajuwon, we don't say that Olajuwon won because he utterly shut Robinson down. He might have, I'll honestly admit I don't know.

We say that Olajuwon won because Robinson didn't have a prayer of stopping Dream, thanks to Dream's skilled footwork and will to win. But Shaq went up against an even better defensive center in Mutombo in 2001. And Mutombo didn't have a chance of stopping Shaq.

Incorrect. Defense for big men is utterly crucial - I've argued here before about Nash's impact( I think that if you choose to discount West/Oscar as point guards, Nash is the 2nd best PG ever), and a large part of that argument is that Nash's bleh defense isn't that important because defense for point guards is nowhere as crucial as it is for bigs.

What I dismiss is the idea that blocked shots and steals come remotely close to showing defensive impact, and half of Clutchfans seems to think that that's why Hakeem was such an elite defender, as opposed to sound fundamentals which are much harder to quantify, as Morey has acknowledged. Shaq in 2000 was a defensive monster ( Lakers had the best defense in the league). Shaq when he cared in 2001 was a defensive monster ( postseason Lakers had by far the best defense in the league).

So much of the defense argument to me with Olajuwon revolves around raw stats and awards. But I don't value the former much, and comparing Olajuwon's awards compared to Shaq's awards is a suicide course. As I said earlier, it takes a complete homer to go "Hakeem winning a DPOY is better than Shaq winning a virtually unanimous MVP".

 

DPOY is award for overrated 2nd tier defensive players like Marcus Camby and Tyson Chandler.

There is a reason why true great defenders like Tim Duncan doesn't have 'em.

 

The top 25 greatest nba players of all times

Dream#10

Duncan #12

Shaq#6

Another one have both Duncan and Shaq in the top 10 and Dream outside the top 10.

Im saying everybody views the game totally different. So neither one of of you are wrong.

 

You correct that even with Hakeem's amazing stats involving blocks and steals those still don't show how much of a huge impact he had on the game at the defensive end. To keep on adding to his amazingness is the fact he didn't have to sacrifice at the offensive end to do it.

Shaq has never equaled the defensive presence and impact of Hakeem.

 

Lol. We're hypocritical. My post was completely in response to yours where you implied that Hakeem 's never done anything at a peak level better than Shaq did. You were wrong?

We only care about awards when it suits is? Wtf? Again, I was ENTIRELY responding to your comment that Shaq came in 2nd in dpoy. Let me reiterate - you brought up the award!

Are you incapable of rationale thought? To bring up things, be shown you're wrong about them, then to complain about the other party mentioning those things you originally brought up? Moronic dude.

But if you insist on continuing to argue that Shaq really was awesome defensively the dude never once made an all defensive first team... Not an "award" but a vote by coaches. Hakeem did it 5 times (though again consider competition - in this era, which includes Shaq, he's a regular first teamer).

People have said you are too young to have watched hakeem regularly. I haven't focused in that as it seems like argument aside you do at least understand the game... But maybe it's true. How old are you?

 

If you put it that way, then sure, Hakeem did one thing better than Shaq, and not by much - Shaq played excellent defense, as was shown by the fact that well, the Lakers were a very good defensive team, #1 in the league, and I give most of the credit of that to the big men as they're the most important in that regard. The fundamental point, however, is that peak Shaq as a player is far ahead of peak Olajuwon, and Olajuwon winning a DPOY in 94 does not make that wrong, otherwise you might as well argue that peak Olajuwon is the GOAT, because Lebron and Jordan didn't win a ring, MVP, and DPOY in the same season.

I'm not giving out my specific age, but Zboy isn't wrong. I don't remember peak Hakeem. I remember Hakeem at the end of his career, but even then I was too young to contemplate just how good he was.

But the idea that hence I don't understand anything about Hakeem is ridiculous. 99% of this board never watched Oscar, Russell, West, or Wilt, yet no one ever hesitates to declare them some of the best players ever. Hakeem was a great, great player. One of the top 10, and he is underrated by the general basketball fanbase who think that Kobe's as good as he is. But given the biases of this board, he's seriously overrated here. He's not a top 5 player, and his peak, as excellent as it was, is not GOAT. Peak Shaq, Lebron, and Jordan were better, with serious arguments for Wilt, Kareem, and Russell as well.

 

It's not that you don't understand anything about Hakeem. It's that if you didn't watch his whole career and did see Shaq's and have been brought up around the hype of Shaq and the severe under valuing of Hakeem by the NBA publicity machine, you may have been swayed or had an influence that subconsciously affects the way you see the two players and their careers. Someone who saw Hakeem's whole career, Duncan's whole career, Shaq's whole career might still be influenced by the hype machine, but there is a slightly better chance that they will have a more unbiased perspective.

 

thanks for pointing that out.

now i know what im dealing with it.

 

I would easily draft hakeem over duncan. I would have to think about shaq, but then remember hackashaq and pick hakeem. There was never a better 2 way player in the league. I trust hakeem with the ball more than kobe or shaq when i need a bucket. You cant go wrong with either mj or hakeem.

 

I never doubted Hakeem was better than Duncan, but you all left out a very important angle of view.

Hakeem was surrounded by less talent than Duncan, so he HAD to put up better numbers. He was forced to. Don't you think Duncan would put up better numbers than he did if he didn't have Parker or Ginobili beside him?

It's like saying LeBron was better as a Cavalier because he put better numbers then. Or Harden as a Rocket compared to his OKC days. Perspective matters.

 

Will add this once again...Parker was a late first rounder and Ginobili was a second rounder. Would they be who they were if they didn't play alongside Tim Duncan? Olajuwon is one of the greatest ever, just not quite at Tim Duncan's level when it comes to elevating a team to greatness...especially if the Spurs win over the Heat this year. Olajuwon is greater than David Robinson and Patrick Ewing though. If Olajuwon successfully navigated himself to the Lakers to play alongside Magic and Worthy after Kareem retired, then we would be talking a different story. His current underrated status would turn overrated in a hurry. Look at Patrick Ewing for example...he was clearly not the player Olajuwon was, but his memorabilia and rookie card are worth much more because he played for the Knicks.

 

They are player only fans who probably never watched the Rockets prior to their fave player joined us. Some are TOF and YOF left overs and now LOF's.

 

That's right. Rudy T is a scout for the Lakers now.

 

I am just as "real" of a Rockets fan as any of you but I can still think Duncan is slightly better than Hakeem.