The ClutchFans forum was not in existence when I watched the Dream, Clyde the Glide playing. I don't even remember the internet was much a thing at that time. Register date is way over-rated.
Here's the bottom line. Duncan's career has been better, due to his durability. But there is NO WAY IN HELL he's in the same breath as Dream. Its just disrespectful. Duncan sat out a whole 4th quarter (in the PLAYOFFS) a few games ago and the Spurs won. If Hakeem EVER sat out the 4th quarter we lose that playoff game. Duncan's a system player playing for a great coach & organization that knows how to win systematically. Hakeem would've been a beast no matter who drafted him. Duncan never demanded double & triple teams or completely shut down a whole side of the floor defensively. I HATE when people compare Dream to players not on his level
There is no need in trying to rationalize with this board about Hakeem, and these posters about dream, these same posters routinely believe harden is the next lebron. You can't tell them that hakeem was a whiner who was at least somewhat responsible for the best player he ever played with to have a career ending knee injury because he demanded to play center. Most on this board are too young to remember that. They remember Hakeem, the player who had a 2 year peak in the playoffs, where he dominated the league, but not the guy who faked an injury to be traded. People don't remember that Hakeem disillusioned the fanbase so must in Houston to the point that the summit was a morgue for much of his tenure in Houston and people didn't give a rip about Hakeem. For much of Hakeem's career he was just going through the motions and getting paid, and getting his numbers but nothing much else. Hakeem had greatness in him, but for much of his career, he didn't care about winning, it was all about getting his numbers.
[rquoter]Robert Reid (guard-forward, Rockets): After the Rockets got Ralph and Rodney, I got a phone call from Bill Fitch and [Rockets general manager] Ray Patterson. I talked to my wife and said, "Let's go back."5 Fran Blinebury (Rockets beat writer, Houston Chronicle): The first year, they got rid of everybody. It was, "Ralph was there and we're just going to dismantle this thing." Thomas: We were so bad. We went into a complete rebuilding program. Blinebury: Fitch wanted [Sampson] to be a center. All he kept saying was "Ralph needs to get a move. He needs a baseline move." Ralph was just never going to be that guy. Bill was always trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole. If anything, Ralph was a triangle or a shape that we hadn't had before. Reid: Ralph, in the back of his mind at practice, he was saying, "I'm going to be the first 7-foot point guard." Bill Fitch was going to go tackle him if he tried to bring it down again. Fitch: I used to get on him that he was a center and not an outside player. Blinebury: Ralph was going to be this game-changing player, a 7-foot-4 guy who could put the ball between his legs, run the court on the break, and shoot 25-foot jumpers. Ray Patterson says, "Not only is Ralph going to be the player of the year, he's going to be the player of the century." Sampson: My mind-set and skill set at that point of time was to be the best basketball player I could be. Not just the best center. I wanted to play guard. I wanted to play forward. They gave me the opportunity to do that. [/rquoter] http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8600657/an-oral-history-hakeem-olajuwon-ralph-sampson-1980s-houston-rockets
NOW I remember why all of us think you're full of s**t. What about the 1986 playoffs? Conveniently forgot about that one, eh, dip****? You're a Maverick and Grizzlies d**k-s**king troll, so we understand your hilarious attempts at revisionist history.
the 86 playoffs made hakeem power hungry more than anything else. He couldn't deal with not being the man and so he made a power play and he got what he wanted from management. but unlike you I actual saw sampson's shot the day it happened. hakeem was largely responsible for why the rockets where perennial playoff losers because hakeem thought he could be the show after 86 and he NEVER saw eye to eye with ralph sampson largely because ralph was a threat to his ego. people talk about the humble hakeem, rarely actually followed his career closely enough to realize it was all smoke and mirrors. Tim Duncan is humble. Hakeem was as vain as you could get.
As I have said before, you are one of the most ignorant and ill-informed posters on this board. Myself and other posters have had to correct you numerous times on a number of topics and it does not like its going to change anytime soon.
did hakeem demand to play center? yes or no? did hakeem and sampson have a saga that played out roughly before sampson had a knee injury? was hakeem know as a whiner early in his career, yes or no? did hakeem fake an injury, yes or no? stop me when i'm wrong. has duncan EVER did any of these things? yes or no. hakeem was not the better player, in no universe was he the better player.
I posted this in the other thread in response to someone who wasnt even old enough to watch Hakeem or Duncan's career in his entirety.... ..... People usually bolster Duncan's position by relying on team numbers. For example, people like to say, "Duncan anchored one of the best team defenses in the league history." A big part of those defensive teams was Bruce Bowen, Manu, and the coaching ability of Popovich. Yet the Duncan folks want to attribute the team number solely on Duncan. Sure he was a big part of it, but he was not the only reason. There were several other major factors involved. Also, since they played in different eras, the opposition was different, so the numbers could be inflated for one vs the other. All things were not equal when the two played. Coaches were not the same. Teammates were not the same. Duncan has been fortunate to be surrounded by better talent, coaching , and management through out his career. But the biggest one to me, the level of competition was not the same. Hakeem played in an era of big men. While Dunan played in an era where big men were dying. IMO, Duncan's numbers are inflated. By how much, its hard to tell. But lets set aside the numbers for a second. Folks like me who have watched and appreciated the careers of big men (Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, Ewing, Mourning, Daugherty, Mutombo, Malone, Robinson, etc.) can tell you certain things about Hakeem and Duncan that you will never find on the scoreboard or the stats sheet... A) Hakeem played in the era of big men and faced stiffer competition at is position. These are the big men Hakeem faced during his championship runs: Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Shaq, Robinson, Rodman, Grant). These are the big men Hakeem faced in his second year (Jabbar, McHale, Parish, Bird). Duncan's competition was simply not in the same class. His toughest opponents were Shaq and Wallaces from the Pistons and I would not even put the Wallace brothers in the same class as some of the bigs Hakeem went up against. B) Hakeem won his matchup against every single one of the guys I named above. No one can say they won their matchup against Hakeem. Not even the 86 Lakers and Celtics, the two best teams in the history of the game can claim that they stopped Hakeem. This right here is the biggest difference between the two for me. Tim Duncan took a big hit on my list of big men when he struggled against the Pistons and Wallace brothers. He struggled again against Pau Gasol and David West, and later against Randolf. Other than the time against the Pistons when his teammates came to rescue, it resulted in Spurs exit from playoffs. No one, and I mean absolutely no one who has watched Hakeem play can say with a straight face to me that the likes of Pau Gasol and David West would outplay him. On defense or offense. Stat and numbers dont tell you this. You have to have followed their careers to make these observations. I will take the guy who played against some of the best big men in the history of the game and came out on top in each instance (other than the 85 Celtics and even then he was great) over the other guy who has struggled against some very mediocre front-courts at times. C) Hakeem guarded the other teams best big player. Hakeem guarded Shaq when they faced. Hakeem guarded Robinson, Ewing, etc. When Malone needed to be stopped late in the game, Hakeem moved Thorpe aside and took the responsibility. Duncan had to protected by Popovich. Duncan was used as a help defender. He shied away from guarding Shaq. Hakeem was the best big man on the court by default during the playoff runs. While Hakeem has shut down Patrick Ewing and David Robinson in the playoffs using single coverage, David West, Zach Randolf, and Gasol have gone off on Duncan. Which ones do you think were tougher cover? Again, you wont find this in the stats. You needed to have watched the games to make this observation. D) Hakeem was dominant on offense. Rockets really had just one playcall. Dump the ball to Hakeem and let him create for others. Vernon was too unpredictable to be a reliable second scorer. None of the other guys other than Cassell could create their own shots and Rudy didnt trust the rookie enough to hand him the ball. It was very simple, if Hakeem could not beat his man one one on, he could not score and he could not get open shots for his teammates. It still amazes me to this day that Rockets won back to back championship on such a simple playcall. What is more amazing is that Hakeem did it by wining his match-up against some of the best in the history of the game. Hakeem was the primary facilitator on every single play. Having watched both play, I can confidently say that if you put replaced Hakeem with Duncan on those two Rockets teams, Rockets would still be looking for their first championship. Duncan is not a dominant scorer like Hakeem was. Hakeem held more responsibility and against stiffer competition. E) As good as Hakeem's numbers were in regular season, it used to go up even more in the playoffs. This is remarkable considering he was the focal point of his team and offense in particular (as I explained earlier). Same is not true for Duncan. His numbers came down in the playoffs. Against weaker competition. And at times mediocre opponents. F) Because they never really played during the same era, sometimes you try to find the common elements they went up against to gauge them. For example, when Rockets used to go up against the Jazz, and Hakeem would go off on them, Malone would ask Jerry Sloan to switch him on Hakeem instead. Never worked. Malone simply could not contain Hakeem. Watch game 2 of Western Conference finals (94) for just one example of this. On the other hand, I have seen Duncan struggle against Malone. Duncan had trouble one-on-one against an over the hill Karl Malone of the Lakers. Think about it for a second. A prime Malone was unable to slow down Hakeem. While a washed up Malone was successful at stopping Duncan. To me, thats very telling, and something you cannot ignore. Duncan struggled against Shaq. Late in games, Shaq would switch with Horry and guard Duncan one on one. Watch those games and you will notice that Duncan struggled against Shaq. Hakeem averaged over 30 points per game at over 50% FG when Shaq was guarding him in the finals, for the enitre game. The reason Duncan struggled while Hakeem did not in the above instances was because Hakeem was quicker, had more moves, and was more explosive on offense. There are a lot of things that stats will never show and tell you. You have had to watched the games to observe some of the things I mentioned above, especially if you are going to compare players from two different eras. The two players, Elie and Horry, who have actually played played with both of these players, both say Duncan was great, but Hakeem was greater. That right there speaks more than what any of us on the boards can claim.
You prove your stupidity by opening your mouth. You list four items, none of which are related to his play on the court, some of which is not even true in its entirety (Sampson wanted to play forward and I do not have a problem with Hakeem demanding he play center. He was a center. You think Shaq would be confortable parading around as a PF? Charlie Thomas, the Rockets owner was an idiot. He was trying to underpay Hakeem, and Hakeem was still underpaid even with a new contract. The Rockets accused him of faking an injury. Luckily for the Rockets they did not trade him to the Heat for Rony Seikley. As for Charlie, he was gone the next year. And I would whine too if Rockets had me surrounded with the trash lineup like they had in the late 80s. Teams would literally triple and quadrapule team Hakeem because they knew everyone was trash. I, for one, would be very disappointed in Duncan, had he not forced the issue with the management if Spurs were a mess like the Rockets were early in Hakeem's career )..... and then conclude.. "hakeem was not the better player, in no universe was he the better player." Are we arguing about who was the better player or who you want your daughter to marry?? Please do yourself a favor and take a Critical Thinking and reasoning class in college. It will do you wonders. Newsflash: Jordan was a jerk and even more demanding of the organization and his players. He demanded the Bulls gets certain players. He literally b**** slapped his teammates in practice and on the court. Good luck convincing anyone that Duncan was better than Jordan. David Robinson was also a very nice and humble guy. We all know what Hakeem did to him. Seriously, you are a terrible poster that often has his facts wrong but more importantly uses terrible logic.
ZBoy: would you mind writing about Dream vs TD in terms of winning? IMO there is no comparison in terms of individual play. Thanks
Weird, when I think about a hakeem trade, I think about the clippers unwilling to part with stanley roberts to make a deal for hakeem. It's strange that your first thought is Ronny Seikley. Again, the fact that the CLIPPERS balked on a deal for Hakeem because of Stanley Roberts, and the heat couldn't even add Steve Smith or Glen Rice to their deal, should tell you something about how Hakeem was viewed back in those days. And make no mistake, the rockets were willing to make those deals to get rid of Hakeem, and you wanna no why? Because Hakeem wasn't seen as a winner for much of his career.
Wrong. Yet again. The main reason Rockets wanted to get rid of Hakeem was because Charlie Thomas did not want to pay him. They wanted Roberts because he was 22, someone they though they could start over again with not have to worry about the $$ vs Hakeem who was 30 and wanted to get his contract done and he was forcing the team to get better players. It was Hakeem who demanded the trade and I do not blame him considering the players Rockets had surrounded him with. Teams thought Stanley Roberts would eat other centers for lunch. Instead, he just ate. Non stop. After the 86 playoffs, Rockets were not winners but no one faulted Hakeem for the losses. They faulted him for trying to do much by hmself. Have you even bothered to look at the Rockets lineup during those years? Do you think its a coincidence that when Hakeem had a worthy supporting cast (86 and 92 and later), he went deep in the playoffs, but when they surrounded him with trash, Rockets were a non-factor? If you think Tim Duncan could have taken those late 80s Rockets team to championships, you are lying to yourself.
Basketball is a team game and the player that makes his team better is more valuable. David Robinson could not win a ring before they got Duncan and tony Parker will not win a ring without Duncan after he retires. I see a lot of posts talking about how Hakeem never had the talent around him that Duncan did, well part of that is Duncan's doing. Ginobili was a second round pick and tony Parker was a late first rounder. I think Tim Duncan had a little to do with their rise to stardom. Olajuwon is one of greatest of all time, but he's only a better fantasy basketball player than Duncan. Duncan is the better real basketball player.
Let me prove to you why I'm not wrong. You want to put everything in a vacuum: charlie thomas just was too blind to see the greatness of hakeem, or he was a cheapskate. This is your opinion, I suppose. But what you fail to see is that after the finals appearance in 86 and once sampson got hurt, the rockets, lead by hakeem, took a nosedive, and for 5 straight years the rockets couldn't make it out of the first round. It got so bad that even hardcore fans of the rockets tuned the team out. This is your great hakeem, and you can say anything you want to make yourself feel better about it, but hakeem, for those 5 years, absolutely did not care about winning. All he cared about was his stats and getting paid, and that is why the general public beyond this rockets board will ALWAYS view team duncan as the better player.
