Did the Bulls fans question Michael Jordan's greatness?

I see what you did there...

"MJ made it to the finals first"

 

I am very disappointed this is an option on the poll:

You can question the Dream's greatness, but NEVER question Jeremy Lin's

 

I'm as big a Rockets fan as anyone on the site, went to game 6 and 7 against the Knicks, etc, etc... but I don't see how you can argue this.

 

I got it

 

2001-02 Duncan won the MVP, had a PER better than all of Hakeem's seasons except 1 ( and that's 27.3 versus 27), had a TS% better than all of Hakeem's seasons except 1 (.577 versus .576), had more Win Shares and offensive Win Shares than any of Hakeem's seasons, had more defensive Win Shares than all but 4 of Hakeem's seasons, and had an offensive rating better than any of Hakeem's.

So, go ahead. Give me 4 seasons Hakeem had better than 2001-02 Duncan. And don't just give me yay points and yay blocks, because that's what half of the "Hakeem is the GOAT" people seem to do. Huge amounts of raw numbers.

First, Hakeem "manhandling" Shaq is one of the biggest myths ever. Shaq still put up very good numbers for himself in the series. Was he as good as Hakeem in the Finals? Of course not, but if we're going to judge players by how they performed in the Finals when they were 23, I guess Lebron has no chance of ever surpassing Hakeem. Oh wait I forgot, that's what tinman actually thinks. And just as Hakeem defeated Shaq in 1995, I don't actually believe Hakeem would stand a chance against 2001 Shaq, who is arguably the greatest player EVER if we're just discussing peaks.

 

Uh no, you could argue he hasn't been the best player on his team for several years now (and he clearly hasn't been the last couple), but before that, no

 

Hakeem lowered his blocks in his later years, so that he could control the blocks to teammates, the raw numbers dropped, the actual value of them were higher than any other player's in the modern era.

Also steals are the highest value defensive play in the game, since they lead to the highest % fg attempts.

That's if we want to actually do what you're suggesting and try to separate the value from raw numbers.

 

Wait, we got Dwight?!

 

This is ironic coming from someone who was a toddler when Rockets were winning championships. Safe to say that you have not followed Hakeem's career, watched only parts of Duncan career, and you are relying solely on numbers to make your argument.

People usually bolster Duncan's position by relying on team numbers. For example, people like to say, "Duncan anchored one of the best team defenses in the league history." A big part of those defensive teams was Bruce Bowen, Manu, and the coaching ability of Popovich. Yet the Duncan folks want to attribute the team number solely on Duncan. Sure he was a big part of it, but he was not the only reason. There were several other major factors involved. Also, since they played in different eras, the opposition was different, so the numbers could be inflated for one vs the other.

All things were not equal when the two played. Coaches were not the same. Teammates were not the same. Duncan has been fortunate to be surrounded by better talent, coaching , and management through out his career. But the biggest one to me, the level of competition was not the same. Hakeem played in an era of big men. While Dunan played in an era where big men were dying. IMO, Duncan's numbers are inflated. By how much, its hard to tell.

But lets set aside the numbers for a second. Folks like me who have watched and appreciated the careers of big men (Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, Ewing, Mourning, Daugherty, Mutombo, Malone, Robinson, etc.) can tell you certain things about Hakeem and Duncan that you will never find on the scoreboard or the stats sheet...

A) Hakeem played in the era of big men and faced stiffer competition at is position. These are the big men Hakeem faced during his championship runs: Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Shaq, Robinson, Rodman, Grant). These are the big men Hakeem faced in his second year (Jabbar, McHale, Parish, Bird). Duncan's competition was simply not in the same class. His toughest opponents were Shaq and Wallaces from the Pistons and I would not even put the Wallace brothers in the same class as some of the bigs Hakeem went up against.

B) Hakeem won his matchup against every single one of the guys I named above. No one can say they won their matchup against Hakeem. Not even the 86 Lakers and Celtics, the two best teams in the history of the game can claim that they stopped Hakeem. This right here is the biggest difference between the two for me. Tim Duncan took a big hit on my list of big men when he struggled against the Pistons and Wallace brothers. He struggled again against Pau Gasol and David West, and later against Randolf. Other than the time against the Pistons when his teammates came to rescue, it resulted in Spurs exit from playoffs. No one, and I mean absolutely no one who has watched Hakeem play can say with a straight face to me that the likes of Pau Gasol and David West would outplay him. On defense or offense.

Stat and numbers dont tell you this. You have to have followed their careers to make these observations.

I will take the guy who played against some of the best big men in the history of the game and came out on top in each instance (other than the 85 Celtics and even then he was great) over the other guy who has struggled against some very mediocre front-courts at times.

C) Hakeem guarded the other teams best big player. Hakeem guarded Shaq when they faced. Hakeem guarded Robinson, Ewing, etc. When Malone needed to be stopped late in the game, Hakeem moved Thorpe aside and took the responsibility. Duncan had to protected by Popovich. Duncan was used as a help defender. He shied away from guarding Shaq. Hakeem was the best big man on the court by default during the playoff runs.

While Hakeem has shut down Patrick Ewing and David Robinson in the playoffs using single coverage, David West, Zach Randolf, and Gasol have gone off on Duncan. Which ones do you think were tougher cover?

Again, you wont find this in the stats. You needed to have watched the games to make this observation.

D) Hakeem was dominant on offense. Rockets really had just one playcall. Dump the ball to Hakeem and let him create for others. Vernon was too unpredictable to be a reliable second scorer. None of the other guys other than Cassell could create their own shots and Rudy didnt trust the rookie enough to hand him the ball. It was very simple, if Hakeem could not beat his man one one on, he could not score and he could not get open shots for his teammates. It still amazes me to this day that Rockets won back to back championship on such a simple playcall. What is more amazing is that Hakeem did it by wining his match-up against some of the best in the history of the game. Hakeem was the primary facilitator on every single play.

Having watched both play, I can confidently say that if you put replaced Hakeem with Duncan on those two Rockets teams, Rockets would still be looking for their first championship. Duncan is not a dominant scorer like Hakeem was. Hakeem held more responsibility and against stiffer competition.

E) As good as Hakeem's numbers were in regular season, it used to go up even more in the playoffs. This is remarkable considering he was the focal point of his team and offense in particular (as I explained earlier).

Same is not true for Duncan. His numbers came down in the playoffs. Against weaker competition. And at times mediocre opponents.

F) Because they never really played during the same era, sometimes you try to find the common elements they went up against to gauge them.

For example, when Rockets used to go up against the Jazz, and Hakeem would go off on them, Malone would ask Jerry Sloan to switch him on Hakeem instead. Never worked. Malone simply could not contain Hakeem. Watch game 2 of Western Conference finals (94) for just one example of this.

On the other hand, I have seen Duncan struggle against Malone. Duncan had trouble one-on-one against an over the hill Karl Malone of the Lakers. Think about it for a second. A prime Malone was unable to slow down Hakeem. While a washed up Malone was successful at stopping Duncan. To me, thats very telling, and something you cannot ignore.

Duncan struggled against Shaq. Late in games, Shaq would switch with Horry and guard Duncan one on one. Watch those games and you will notice that Duncan struggled against Shaq. Hakeem averaged over 30 points per game at over 50% FG when Shaq was guarding him in the finals, for the enitre game.

The reason Duncan struggled while Hakeem did not in the above instances was because Hakeem was quicker, had more moves, and was more explosive on offense.

There are a lot of things that stats will never show and tell you. You have had to watched the games to observe some of the things I mentioned above, especially if you are going to compare players from two different eras.

Unfortunately for you, as I said earlier, you are 22 now, which means you have not followed either of the two players career wholly. Thus, you are not in the best position to compare the two.

The two players, Elie and Horry, who have actually played played with both of these players, both say Duncan was great, but Hakeem was greater. That right there speaks more than what any of us on the boards can claim.

 

The whole made it to the finals first argument is all garbage. No one cares if you made it, people only care if you won it.

No one in Miami says but but but but Dan Marino made it first!!!

If it was some slip up by some other poster, hey it happens.

Hey, it's not like the Rockets relocated or anything.

 

Wow! Game over. A response like a boss. Thanks for the good read.

 

Zboy's post was right on point. I just want to make one final argument for Hakeem over Duncan.

Hakeem made more of those "Oh my god, did he really just do THAT?!?!" moves than any other player I've ever seen.

From the dunk in the 1994 NBA finals on Ewing...

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/5gRQejfc6_8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

...to the block on Rod Strickland in the 1995 playoffs

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/OamoIIT2yn8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

...to the way he "BAMBOOZLED" David Robinson in the 1995 WCF

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/hW4uXlRGAF0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

...he kept making plays time after time that would take your breath away.

Yes, I've seen Duncan make some incredible game winning shots in his career, but nothing that made my jaw drop like Hakeem.

 

Great post, wish there are more of this instead of the hatin', bickerin' and pigeonholin'.

It would be even better if you could elaborate on their contributions to team winning. Thanks.

 

iirc in all his playoff showdown with the other great centers, Robinson, Ewing, Shaq, etc. Hakeem was never once outscored by them. IMO thats pretty damn eye-opening.

Come playoff time he was always dropping 30-40 on these guys.

 

HAKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEMMM THEEE DREAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMMMMMMM OLAAAJUUWWWWWWONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN omg back from party drunk omg gimme some dat big shot rob

 

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/n_-9Z2LF4fI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> dat big shot rob