A little premature, but still a good sample. http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/6597/terrence-jones http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6530/greg-smith
Getting an offensive rebound is one of the single most valuable plays in the game. It's like you singlehandely stopped there opportunity to go down and attempt to score before it even started. And if you go back up and dunk that is even more awesome. Then you were a 1 man show on both offense and defense. One of those in a game can make the difference of winning and losing. T Jones is the best offensive rebounder we have on the team. If you take Asik out of the equation it is not even close. Without measuring their rebounding overall that makes TJones the better rebounder of the 2. Also he is a better defender. I hear people argue that on here but it is so clear. Every foul is a bad defensive trip. Greg Smith hates getting beat. He gets beat often and sometimes he fouls to negate the beat down. TJones stays in front of his man better and blocks shots better. TJones is the better basketball player. I think it is stupid to say he is not scouted once he gets scouted he will get figured out. The thing he does are easily scoutable but not easily stoppable. He steals a ball and runs the court for a slam. He digs in for an offensive rebound and jumps back up and slams it. He charges the lane and slams in a put back. He follows Lin who has nothing and tosses it to him for the bailout. He blocks shots and alters shots and out hustles his opponents. Yeah he has beat his man off the dribble a couple of times and that is scoutable and stoppable. But mostly the things he does are effort type plays and so what if you scout them. You can't stop them. Everyone scouted dennis Rodman for years. I know he is not Dennis Rodman but he helps the team in the same manner right now. No plays run for him. hell when he gets the ball he is just looking to get it to someone else on the perimeter. That's another thing for someone with the least NBA experience he makes the least mistakes of all the other 4's. It is stupid to say he has not been scouted like that is the reason he is playing well. He has the least NBA experience of all the 4's and he will only get better. Which is why it was a big shame McHale held him back. He would only be better and contributing more.
Getting a defensive rebound is more important than an offensive rebound. You stop an offensive play right there. On offensive rebounding, the downside is when a player doesn't get the rebound they are out of position for transition defense. This makes a lot of difference for PGs and wings, but PFs need to be aware of this as well. On offensive rebounding, Thomas Robinson is the best on the team.
Great post and I especially agree with this part. Can't scout hustle. Jones still gets lost offensively at times. He often hesitates when he gets the ball and ends up holding it for a couple of seconds before he figures out what to do. But I attribute that to being a rookie and not being as familiar with the rest of the team.
I agree with this. Defensive rebounding is key to winning games. Simplest example is looking at our (for most of us) favorite past player. Akeem started off as a great/phenomenal offensive rebounder but towards his peak Hakeem years became a great defensive rebounder. Ultimately those defensive boards were critical for us. Other examples--look at the old Celtics teams of which McHale was a big part. Parish, McHale, and Bird were all excellent defensive rebounders, but none of them were great (or even particularly good) offensive rebounders. They won. Offensive boards are great, exciting, very helpful, of course, but you can sometimes get two (or more) off of tips and missed putbacks in one possession. You can never get two defensive rebounds in one possession. When I ran a fantasy league, I gave more credit to a defensive rebound than an offensive rebound.
Where's the stats that back up offensive rebounding as one of the most important skill-sets in basketball? I'm not saying your wrong, but am noting without stats both of your opinions are just random dude's opinion. I'd also note that there seem to be a lot more of the better teams that are worse at offensive rebounding, then there are better teams that are bad at defensive rebounding. Which basically is the opposite of what you said (from a team perspective at least). The bottom 10 offensive rebounding teams in the nba this year include from worst to less bad, Boston, SA, Miami, Atlanta, Dallas, OKC, Toronto, Portland, GS, NYK... absent Toronto, those are average to way way way above average squads. The bottom 10 defensive rebounding teams in the nba this year include from worst to less bad, Cleveland, Sacramento, Charlotte, Toronto, New Orleans, NYK, Memphis, Utah, Phoenix, Brooklyn. Some exceptions, but generally the worst teams in the league. Of course there's a reason for it, which is obvious. Most of the better teams execute and score more efficiently on offense, creating fewer offensive rebounds, and are more focused on getting back on transition d. To a team like Houston, offensive rebounding is definitely more important. Denver is the #1 team from that perspective... Houston is middle of the pack. So to the extent Denver is better than us, playing the same style, yes, we need more offensive rebounders and its a solid skill-set. To where I think the team ultimately needs to go... which is at least a little slower, and certainly more focused on defense, the fact that Jones might be the better offensive rebounder does fairly little for me in the long-run. Great skill to have, but I'd rather he be a better defender first and foremost (which includes defensive rebounding), and a more efficient offensive player. On the latter, I think he can get there just with more time and being more comfortable on the team, in the league and with his game. On the defense... still wait and see on that, but I am fairly encouraged, especially by his shot blocking ability. he still seems a bit undersized at times, though, defensively.
Stats! You wanting stinking Stats? First of all you can get stats to prove any position you want to take about anything. Rebounding 3 point shooting whatever position you want. So forget about stats to prove your case and just watch the games. Secondly we are kind of talking the same thing, rebounding so it is pointless argument. Finally I never said offensive rebounding was better than defensive rebounding. I said "getting an offensive rebound is one of the single most valuable plays in the game". I didn't say it was the most... just one of them think about it. If you hold a team for 24 seconds and they put up a shot and miss and then they get the rebound that is one of the most demoralizing defensive plays. You do your job on defense and then they steal the rebound and you gotta do it again. So the flip side of that frustation is they got the offensive rebound and now have another chance to score because they got the offensive rebound. Great play for them on an offensive rebound. Demoralizingng play for the other team end of discussion. Teams are expected to get defensive rebounds . When they don't it's always considered a breakdown. As for stats, they are mostly irrelevant unless you are going to get into the Morey type analysis. The better team usually shoots better which means less opportunities for offensive rebounds. This is a case where you got to use your eyes. Sacramento shoots and the ball takes a normal bounce and the defensive team should rebound it but T Jones slides in front of Cousins and jumps and gets the rebound and then jumps back up before Cousins can move in on him and dunks it. That was just a major play that affected the game in a major way. You just got to watch the game to see that. Yes I know I am a random dude without stats but if you can't see that than I can't help you. Also I got to add this Hakeem. He was an amazing offensive rebounder. He was amazing at everything. The thing is if you are creating the shot usually you are out of position to rebound the shot. He was always creating. Hence less opportunities but not less ability.
I am spot on with the possible exception of the first sentence. Basically, the downside of offensive rebounding is it hurts transition defense. The upside to offensive rebounding is that it generally creates a high point per possession attempt. The downside of defensive rebounding (for a player not the team) is that there are diminishing returns. The upside to defensive rebounding is that it helps the transition offense and it eliminates the opportunity for the other team to have an easy opportunity. A lot of studies have been shown offensive rebounding helps the offense more than defensive rebounding helps the defense. Studies have shown that offensive rebounding hurts the defense, but not as much as it helps the offense. I have not seen a study that shows offensive rebounds are more important for offense and defense than defense rebounds are for offense and defense. I did see something a while back that showed offensive rebounding teams generally lost more than teams that didn't crash the boards. The only problem I remember with it was that it didn't show whether bad teams were bad because they offensive rebound or that bad teams were forced to offensive rebound because they sucked at shooting. Documentation for link between offensive rebounding and transition defense http://www.sloansportsconference.co...ounding and transition defense in the NBA.pdf Documentation for diminishing returns affecting defensive rebounds more than offensive rebounding http://www.countthebasket.com/blog/...he-value-of-offensive-and-defensive-rebounds/
The first sentence is what shows you do not know what you are talking. So at least you are learning. Again I never said offensive rebounding was better than defensive rebounding. I said "getting an offensive rebound is one of the single most valuable plays in the game". Are you arguing that? If so I could go on and try to explain why I feel that way if that is what you are arguing about but what's the point. In the end you will never concede your argument whatever it is. So let's just agree to disagree. Oh and don't believe everything you read on the internet... watch the games and believe your eyes. That was the most beautiful play of the game when TJones got that rebound over Cousins and went back up with a dunk!
I will agree to disagree. Getting an offensive rebound is only valuable if you aren't allowing the other team transition baskets. If you watch games, teams that crash boards, get beat down the court. I also disagree that Jones is a better offensive rebounder than Asik and Robinson.
BTW, is there a video out there that compiles all the TJones blocks from the PHX game? Missed the game bc of work -_- And, despite the O-Reb ability of TJones he is definitely not better than Asik. Although, I feel as though he is better than Robinson so I would feel comfortable putting hsi ability between those two.
Defensive rebounds ate prob the most important thing in basketball. If also agree that asik is the best offensive rebounder we have and that Trob and jones are equal iv seen Trob gram an offensive rebound plenty of times this yr on sac and Houston.
I think it isn't really correct to say one stat is more important than the other because both offensive and defensive rebounding contribute to winning. Probably other factors make OR or DR more important such as game situation, the 5 players on the court's strengths and weaknesses etc. But taken as they are, defensive coaches preach that no defense is complete unless there is a defensive rebound. the defensive rebound is the period of a defensive stop. without it, you simply keep giving the other team more opportunities to score and diminishes whatever defensive play before that such as a blocked shot or forcing the other player to shoot a bad shot. Offensive rebounds give your team more and more chances to score plus demoralizes the defense of the other team.
