What about a spirit? Which of your scientific instruments measures or even recognizes that? A 3 month-old is not as functional as a 14 year-old and a 14 year-old is not as functional as a 37 year-old but an 89 year-old is probably not as functional as a 37 year-old either. Are people that are brain dead human?
My square hole is logic. I think that's a useful framework to use. I am not sure what your round peg is. Look, I am not trying to "demean" anything here. If I thought you were just being an idiot I wouldn't waste my time. But when you don't address the points I make and just gloss over it with weird sentences, I think you aren't respecting my time. I asked a bunch of questions in the above post and you answered none of them except the case of twins. I can prove that an embryo does not have a brain and neural activity. It does not move, it does not think, it does not feel. It is literally a clump of cells. What proof beyond that are you looking for? They don't always result in a human life. That is false. A large portion of the time the body rejects it. Is that murder? Or accidental death. Does the police need to investigate to make sure a person was not killed? Should the woman be questioned? Did she do everything to avoid a miscarriage? The bottom line is I don't want to live in your world of abortion being completely outlawed. I may have a daughter someday, and I don't want your beliefs interfering with my life or that of my family. I want you and all the other pro-lifers to stay out of it. It's not your place. It's not your right. And I refuse to have someone's religious beliefs pushed upon me.
See, I think my position on this is the only logical position... because I am not seeking or willing to move ahead in an aggressive way (leading to death) without absolute certainty that what is being lost (a human creation in utero) has no value. Just because it can't do Suduko doesn't mean it's not human. BTW, why does having brainwaves make us human? Don't an octopous and a giraffe have brainwaves, too? So what is it that makes us human? I felt like I had pretty much addressed all of your points at one time or another. I've grown weary of deflecting your criticism of my supposed religious education on the matter. About a dozen posts ago (of mine) I asked for the rock-solid certain proof (how, when, and where) human life began. So far, no response. I've "asserted" conception because that is not cognitively dissonant and there is a huge lack of any rock-solid better evidence. I believe numerous times I've said human birth-- dead or alive. Even a stillborn was a human. We have one in my extended family. Her name was Victoria and she died in the womb. I suppose if someone reports it as a crime, the police should investigate because there are some cruel, sick people out there.... but in general, no.... it just happens that way. Ugh, with the religion again.... I don't want to live in a world where the most innocent among us is slaughtered wantonly in selfish pursuit. Over half of the babies aborted since Roe v. Wade would have been women. Isn't that ironic? Killing "sisters" so that women can maintain a right to privacy.....
So if you scratch yourself and cells come of your body and die - that makes you a murderer? Because those cells are innocent too. They are a human being by your definition. They are alive. What makes a zygote any more superior to any other cell in your body? You are being disingenuous if you want anyone to believe that your religious beliefs have nothing to do with your view on human life beginning at conception. That or you just are living in your own reality.
I've asked a couple of times for your accounting for a human spirit. The issue is more than just about cells... unless you are destroying the totality of cells that comprise the being-- which is what an abortion does.
You say you aren't bringing religion into this and you talk about "spirit". There is no such thing outside the context of religion. What makes people precious isn't that they are made of 46 chromosomes that code them. It's not the combination of a sperm and an egg. It's our memories. Our feelings and emotions. Our senses. Our ability to comprehend. Our ability to experience. To know joy, to know pain, and to know fear.
Fair enough, but I'm talking generalized here. No heavy-handed Bible thumping. Most aboriginal people talk about spirit matters, indeed most people around the world do. So how many memories does one have to accumulate to be precious?
You guys are delusional. Your idea of a good debate is if you change somebody's mind. I've held this position for more than 30 years. Do you really think anything you can say on a message board is going to "move me" to change my position. I have no delusions about winning a debate here with the participants. I just enjoy speaking out on what I consider the more essential matters of this issue. Whether or not it is the popular position is not material at all.
No more than your Science. Everyone operates out of some "belief framework." There is no objective justification for you to dismiss mine and uphold yours. Of course, there is a subjective justification for doing that! Don't mix the two up though-- objective and subjective. Sorry but that is a ridiculous notion you've concocted to escape.... :grin:
Science is not a belief framework. It's an observational one. Escape? Ha. I can escape anytime by ending this debate. I am not here to win or look good. I look far better not engaging you. I also save time. I have no idea why I am debating you. Maybe I am not as cynical as I think I am.
giddyup needs to just admit that his position, though dear to him, is simply irrational. But he won't. And people will keep doing the same thing "Aha! giddyup just said something completely irrational! I'll get him now!" 'Round and around we go.
1. Faith/Spirit life is also experiential-- not just hollow dogma. 2. Where's that answer about how, when and where Human Life begins, oh observant one? 3. So, for example, the theory of Evolution is not full of holes which are patched up by conjecture that is "believable?" How about the origins of the Universe.....
I'd be interested in how you mean "irrational," so point out to me one thing that you think I said that is irrational. See, I find my arguments highly rational but not attendant to the stamp of science.
ha ha, "show me where I've been irrational." Expected. Even if I went through and pulled all of your posts from this thread, you'd still refuse (or be incapable) of recognizing their rationality. Your beliefs are not rational. They're faith-based, motivated by belief and tradition, and I'm not saying that makes them worthless. I'm saying that means they're not rational. That's how you can have the same opinion for 30 years.
Didn't think you could or would. Where's all the rock-solid proof I've been asking for? All I get is definitions and flimsy construct like it takes a brain-wave to be a human but a brain wave can be created by many creatures. The secret to my rationality is that I don't have to construct some reality to justify what I want to do. I just look at the situation and accept it: two people created that thing and in a few months a human child will be born. What else needs to be said or imagined? OMG, I'm operating out of Sweet Lou's preferred dynamic of OBSERVATION. Isn't that ironic?
There are three (possibly more) logical fallacies deployed in the above post. See if you can find them! Seriously giddyup, I don't think you even realize how dishonest of a debater you are. I used to think you were just playing rope-a-dope, but now I really believe you're completely unaware of what you're doing here. Anyway, carry on! You'll always find another dope to rope. I'M OUT.
