This guy is not a Kobe Bryant fan! http://clnsradio.com/2013/03/26/kob...ents-fallacies-define-his-inflated-greatness/
Decent article. I think any intelligent fan realizes Kobe's greatness comes from individual regular season accolades and longevity. He belongs in a class with guys like Dominique Wilkins and not the class with Bird, Jordan and Magic (and eventually Lebron).
it was actually a well written and thought out article - i think the first part about the media hype is extremely relevant as while its hard for anyone to argue that Kobe isn't a top 20 player of all time - I certainly do not believe he is in the top 10. also just for funsies I posted the link to my facebook wall just to troll all my lakers/kobe fanboy friends (i live and grew up in la - this should be fun)
There's a difference between a glorious chucker and a glorified chucker. Kobe is the both. I'd rather see Kobe miss than many players make. This guy's a idoit. Hitler's fame resulted in the death of millions. Kobe's success inspired a generation of people to work hard on their crafts.
Great article. supdudes and dachuda86 started early with the type of posts I'm expecting in this thread.
Top 20 seems about right, may well slip out of the top 20 in the next 15-20 years based on young players coming along. Below are the players I can think of that are clearly better than Kobe or atleast are arguably better. Bob Pettit /Bill Russell /Elgin Baylor /Wilt Chamberlain /Oscar Robertson /Jerry West /Elvin Hayes /Kareem Abdul Jabbar /Larry Bird /Moses Malone /Magic Johnson / Hakeem Olajuwon /Karl Malone /Michael Jordan /David Robinson /LeBron James /Shaquille O'Neal
Rant Compared to Hakeem, who most "experts" argue is below Hakeem on the all-time list, Kobe has had the ultimate "silver platter" career: Seasons playing with a prime Shaquille O'Neal: 8 seasons Seasons playing under Phil Jackson: 11 seasons Seasons playing under Phil Jackson AND with a prime Shaquille O'Neal: 5 seasons Other players on Kobe's Championship Laker teams: Pau Gasol, Andrew Bynum, Lamar Odom, Glen Rice, Rick Fox, and Ron Artest. I'll spare you complete roster details but go look at those 1999-2001 teams and see how stacked they were. The list of Kobe's HOF-to-be teammates who he couldn't win a championship with (Payton, Malone, Nash, Howard) is longer than Hakeem's total HOF teammates (Drexler, Pippen, Barkley--all past their primes). I truly believe Kobe is a GREAT (not good, GREAT) player, but like other NBA superstars of this area, his legend has been partially manufactured by both the league (impact of officiating, marketing, post-season awards) and the four-letter network. His poor shot-selection and his failure to make teammates better over his career prevent him from top 10 all-time status IMO. If you replaced Kobe with the following players on those championship Lakers--McGrady, Iverson, Nowitzki, Carter, Paul Pierce, Duncan, Garnett, Reggie Miller, Ray Allen (?)--I think they still win. There isn't one player (not named Michael Jordan) you could have replaced Hakeem with on those '94-'95 championship teams and still achieve the same results. No disrespect intended, but I think Hakeem was able to lead us to the crown despite mediocre coaching and a slightly-above-average supporting cast. My top ten all-time (for *****s an g*ggles): 1. MJ 2. Hakeem 3. Tim Duncan 4. Magic Johnson 5. Larry Bird 6. Bill Russell 7. Wilt Chamberlain 8. Oscar Robertson 9. Jerry West 10. Shaq
Apologies/Clarification: 1) 1999-2001 championship Lakers 2) This section is based on contemporary players. For instance, I don't believe there is anyone not named MJ in Hakeem's era that could have led those '94-'95 teams to the championship.
funny, i just read the first part about media hype and he player who i thought about suffers from over hyped players stealing attention is hakeem i bet casual basketball fans will tell you that charles barkley was a better player than hakeem
Who diid 'Nique have for teammates that were anywhere near the caliber of Gasol/Odom/Bynum? Doc Rivers? Kevin Willis? At least he consistently took pretty mediocre Hawks teams to the playoffs and one particularly epic battle in the ECF against a Celtics team loaded with legends. You can't win championships without good teammates. Kobe has been spoonfed great teammates his whole career. This year he has one of the most stacked teams in NBA history and he has chucked them to a likely first round sweep or unthinkable lottery. The guy is a joke and his legacy will only fade over time.
Subjectively, I think I'd probably rank Kobe just outside of top 10. I took a look at the player rating stats at basketball-reference.com to come up with an overall player ranking system. I based it on a blend of PER and WS/48. Note that this ranking system only reflects what's registered in the boxscore because its based on PER and WS/48. So, naturally, I don't agree with a lot of the results. Nevertheless, I was curious how these stats would rank players. I weighted playoff minutes 8x the regular season, reasoning that a playoff run of around 10 games should count roughly the same as a full regular season (just my opinion). I didn't consider the player's first and last season in the league. I also only ranked players who played at least 10000 regular minutes and 1000 playoff minutes, and where they ranked top 200 in PER and WS/48 in both the regular season and post-season. Only 98 players showed up on all the lists, and those are the players I ranked. In the end, there's a "rate" ranking and a "career" ranking. The "rate" ranking is an average of normalized PER and WS/48, without considering how many minutes the player played. The career rating factors in minutes. So, while Kareem ranks 9th based on "rate", he's 1st based on "career". The final ranking is an average of the players "rate" rank and "career" rank. Its my way of considering both how good the player was on a per-possession basis and also longevity. Kobe ranked 30th by "rate", 6th by "career", and 15th overall. Here is the full table: Code: [SIZE="1"][B] --------------------- ---------------------- ------------------------- ------------------------------- Using average of normalized Playoffs Regular 8 x Playoffs + Regular PER and WS/48 --------------------- ---------------------- ------------------------- -------------------------------[/B] Rk Player MP PER WS/48 MP PER WS/48 MP PER WS/48 rate career rnk 1 Michael Jordan* 7303 28.7 0.257 34836 28.8 0.267 93260 28.7 0.261 2.26 (1) 21.09 (2) 1.5 2 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 8065 23.2 0.195 52217 25.1 0.236 116737 24.0 0.213 1.87 (9) 21.81 (1) 5 3 Wilt Chamberlain* 6343 23.2 0.202 40979 26.6 0.248 91723 24.7 0.223 1.94 (5) 17.76 (5) 5 4 Tim Duncan 7041 25.5 0.2 36165 24.9 0.217 92493 25.3 0.207 1.88 (6) 17.35 (7) 6.5 5 Shaquille O'Neal 8086 26.2 0.184 38095 26.9 0.212 102783 26.5 0.194 1.85 (11) 19.05 (3) 7 6 Magic Johnson* 6745 23.1 0.209 29492 24.5 0.231 83452 23.6 0.217 1.87 (7) 15.61 (8) 7.5 7 LeBron James 4994 27.1 0.234 24375 28.4 0.253 64327 27.6 0.241 2.13 (2) 13.67 (16) 9 8 Dirk Nowitzki 5281 24.7 0.205 37356 23.9 0.216 79604 24.3 0.210 1.86 (10) 14.82 (10) 10 9 Jerry West* 5846 23.3 0.204 32807 23.5 0.224 79575 23.4 0.212 1.84 (12) 14.65 (12) 12 10 Charles Barkley* 4441 24.6 0.195 36363 25.1 0.221 71891 24.9 0.208 1.87 (8) 13.44 (17) 12.5 11 Karl Malone* 6965 22.1 0.148 51004 24.6 0.215 106724 23.3 0.180 1.68 (23) 17.89 (4) 13.5 12 Hakeem Olajuwon* 5476 26 0.191 39930 24.1 0.181 83738 25.1 0.186 1.77 (16) 14.8 (11) 13.5 13 David Robinson* 3307 23.7 0.196 29593 26.6 0.256 56049 25.2 0.228 1.98 (3) 11.09 (27) 15 14 John Stockton* 6063 20.1 0.164 43999 22.2 0.213 92503 21.1 0.187 1.64 (26) 15.17 (9) 17.5 15 Kobe Bryant 8508 22.6 0.159 41274 23.7 0.187 109338 23.0 0.170 1.62 (30) 17.66 (6) 18 16 Larry Bird* 6407 21.7 0.177 29826 23.9 0.208 81082 22.5 0.188 1.69 (21) 13.72 (15) 18 17 Oscar Robertson* 2984 22.3 0.195 38377 23.5 0.213 62249 23.0 0.206 1.8 (15) 11.2 (25) 20 18 Bill Russell* 6259 20 0.191 35740 19.1 0.197 85812 19.6 0.193 1.62 (28) 13.92 (13) 20.5 19 Kevin Garnett 4821 21.5 0.151 43486 23.7 0.196 82054 22.7 0.175 1.63 (27) 13.37 (18) 22.5 20 Dwyane Wade 3922 24.9 0.193 20039 26.6 0.205 51415 25.6 0.198 1.84 (13) 9.46 (37) 25 21 Moses Malone* 3796 21.4 0.173 44922 22.3 0.178 75290 21.9 0.176 1.61 (31) 12.13 (20) 25.5 22 Bob Pettit* 3450 22.8 0.161 26277 25.6 0.216 53877 24.2 0.188 1.74 (18) 9.4 (38) 28 23 Reggie Miller* 4878 20 0.184 43674 18.6 0.18 82698 19.3 0.182 1.55 (38) 12.83 (19) 28.5 24 Chauncey Billups 5206 19.4 0.192 30065 19.4 0.186 71713 19.4 0.189 1.59 (34) 11.43 (23) 28.5 25 Dolph Schayes* 2687 23.3 0.189 29450 22.1 0.195 50946 22.6 0.192 1.72 (19) 8.74 (42) 30.5 26 Kevin McHale* 5307 19.3 0.172 26817 20.6 0.189 69273 19.8 0.179 1.55 (37) 10.76 (31) 34 27 Manu Ginobili 3555 21.2 0.18 17174 22.4 0.222 45614 21.7 0.196 1.7 (20) 7.76 (48) 34 28 Walt Frazier* 3834 20 0.198 29350 19.3 0.18 60022 19.7 0.189 1.6 (33) 9.61 (36) 34.5 29 Adrian Dantley* 2496 19.5 0.175 31209 21.8 0.191 51177 20.9 0.185 1.62 (29) 8.29 (44) 36.5 30 Pau Gasol 3907 20.9 0.166 25684 22.2 0.185 56940 21.5 0.175 1.59 (35) 9.05 (39) 37 31 Julius Erving* 5108 20.1 0.152 26759 22.3 0.184 67623 21.0 0.165 1.52 (43) 10.29 (32) 37.5 32 Dwight Howard 2246 23.7 0.198 19801 23.2 0.195 37769 23.4 0.196 1.76 (17) 6.66 (58) 37.5 33 Clyde Drexler* 5305 20 0.138 33656 21.4 0.18 76096 20.6 0.157 1.47 (50) 11.19 (26) 38 34 Bob Lanier* 1862 22.5 0.193 28079 22.1 0.18 42975 22.2 0.185 1.66 (24) 7.15 (52) 38 35 Chris Paul 1360 24.9 0.174 15134 26.1 0.25 26014 25.6 0.218 1.94 (4) 5.06 (77) 40.5 36 Scottie Pippen* 7811 18.7 0.144 39007 18.9 0.151 101495 18.8 0.147 1.36 (72) 13.8 (14) 43 37 Elgin Baylor* 4954 22.1 0.137 30769 22.7 0.146 70401 22.4 0.141 1.45 (56) 10.21 (33) 44.5 38 Sam Jones* 4065 17.8 0.167 21871 18.8 0.187 54391 18.2 0.175 1.48 (46) 8.06 (45) 45.5 39 Amare Stoudemire 2005 23.3 0.167 19529 23 0.182 35569 23.1 0.175 1.65 (25) 5.86 (67) 46 40 Steve Nash 4213 20 0.136 35445 20.4 0.169 69149 20.2 0.153 1.44 (59) 9.94 (34) 46.5 41 Paul Arizin* 1356 21.7 0.206 22112 20.3 0.193 32960 20.8 0.197 1.68 (22) 5.53 (71) 46.5 42 Patrick Ewing* 5140 19.7 0.131 37922 21.3 0.154 79042 20.5 0.142 1.39 (68) 11.01 (28) 48 43 Paul Pierce 5153 18.1 0.136 36153 20.7 0.168 77377 19.3 0.151 1.4 (67) 10.82 (30) 48.5 44 Ray Allen 4964 16.9 0.151 39841 19.3 0.158 79553 18.1 0.155 1.38 (69) 10.95 (29) 49 45 Cliff Hagan* 2646 21 0.175 20760 19.8 0.171 41928 20.4 0.173 1.55 (39) 6.48 (61) 50 46 Kevin Durant 1790 24.7 0.203 11708 24.2 0.198 26028 24.5 0.201 1.82 (14) 4.74 (86) 50 47 Tracy McGrady 1603 24.7 0.139 28642 22.6 0.157 41466 23.2 0.151 1.53 (40) 6.35 (62) 51 48 Shawn Kemp 2865 21 0.16 26540 19.7 0.154 49460 20.3 0.157 1.46 (55) 7.22 (51) 53 49 Larry Nance 2300 18.1 0.149 28602 20.2 0.175 47002 19.4 0.165 1.47 (51) 6.91 (55) 53 50 George Gervin* 2191 21.1 0.141 24471 22.2 0.167 41999 21.7 0.156 1.51 (45) 6.32 (63) 54 51 John Havlicek* 6606 17.7 0.136 41474 17.9 0.139 94322 17.8 0.137 1.28 (89) 12.07 (21) 55 52 Elton Brand 1058 20.7 0.179 28259 21.4 0.16 36723 21.2 0.164 1.53 (41) 5.62 (69) 55 53 Robert Parish* 5920 16.5 0.121 43914 19.3 0.154 91274 17.8 0.137 1.28 (90) 11.68 (22) 56 54 Jeff Hornacek 4469 16.7 0.151 30270 18.1 0.16 66022 17.3 0.155 1.35 (73) 8.94 (40) 56.5 55 Kevin Johnson 3750 19.6 0.123 23031 21.2 0.184 53031 20.3 0.149 1.42 (64) 7.55 (49) 56.5 56 Rick Barry* 2644 20.7 0.152 24019 20.6 0.159 45171 20.6 0.156 1.47 (53) 6.63 (60) 56.5 57 Dikembe Mutombo 3097 17.8 0.153 33979 17.3 0.158 58755 17.5 0.156 1.36 (71) 8.01 (46) 58.5 58 Jason Kidd 5841 17.6 0.118 45400 18.3 0.137 92128 17.9 0.127 1.23 (94) 11.38 (24) 59 59 Terry Porter 3740 17.5 0.149 32846 17.4 0.153 62766 17.4 0.151 1.34 (76) 8.39 (43) 59.5 60 Alonzo Mourning 2230 19.2 0.141 22942 21.4 0.169 40782 20.4 0.157 1.47 (54) 5.97 (65) 59.5 61 Dan Issel* 1274 20.9 0.151 20658 21.3 0.181 30850 21.2 0.171 1.56 (36) 4.82 (83) 59.5 62 Artis Gilmore* 1066 17.1 0.116 28792 20.5 0.178 37320 19.7 0.164 1.48 (48) 5.51 (72) 60 63 Chris Bosh 1694 19.2 0.147 21107 21.5 0.166 34659 20.6 0.159 1.48 (47) 5.13 (76) 61.5 64 Bailey Howell* 2528 16 0.138 26692 19.3 0.184 46916 17.9 0.164 1.42 (66) 6.65 (59) 62.5 65 George Yardley* 1498 21.4 0.18 11876 21.1 0.179 23860 21.3 0.180 1.61 (32) 3.83 (94) 63 66 Vince Carter 2361 19.1 0.127 33414 20.4 0.144 52302 19.9 0.138 1.35 (74) 7.08 (53) 63.5 67 Bobby Jones 3102 16.9 0.158 18658 18.4 0.181 43474 17.5 0.168 1.42 (63) 6.19 (64) 63.5 68 Bill Sharman* 2312 16.9 0.165 20255 18.3 0.179 38751 17.6 0.172 1.45 (57) 5.62 (70) 63.5 69 James Worthy* 5297 18.3 0.135 26434 18.1 0.138 68810 18.2 0.136 1.29 (87) 8.86 (41) 64 70 Alex English* 2427 19.9 0.129 35667 20.3 0.133 55083 20.2 0.132 1.33 (78) 7.33 (50) 64 71 Shawn Marion 3338 17.2 0.118 33317 19.6 0.158 60021 18.5 0.140 1.32 (82) 7.92 (47) 64.5 72 Willis Reed* 2509 18.4 0.155 19531 18.8 0.167 39603 18.6 0.161 1.42 (62) 5.64 (68) 65 73 Ed Macauley* 1414 17.4 0.134 17875 20.5 0.199 29187 19.3 0.174 1.51 (44) 4.41 (88) 66 74 Rasheed Wallace 5838 15.5 0.126 34159 17.3 0.143 80863 16.3 0.133 1.21 (98) 9.77 (35) 66.5 75 Walt Bellamy* 1939 16.8 0.116 35582 19.2 0.153 51094 18.5 0.142 1.32 (79) 6.77 (57) 68 76 Larry Foust 1920 19.1 0.136 18773 20.5 0.171 34133 19.9 0.155 1.44 (58) 4.91 (78) 68 77 Chet Walker* 3126 16 0.122 28989 17.6 0.168 53997 16.9 0.147 1.3 (84) 7 (54) 69 78 Harry Gallatin* 1033 20 0.127 13823 21.7 0.187 22087 21.1 0.165 1.52 (42) 3.37 (96) 69 79 Vern Mikkelsen* 1731 16.9 0.168 16304 18.9 0.179 30152 18.0 0.174 1.47 (52) 4.43 (87) 69.5 80 Clyde Lovellette* 1337 18.9 0.124 17383 21.7 0.177 28079 20.6 0.157 1.47 (49) 4.13 (91) 70 81 Sidney Moncrief 2953 15.5 0.113 20497 19.3 0.196 44121 17.3 0.152 1.33 (77) 5.88 (66) 71.5 82 Dave Cowens* 3768 16.6 0.119 25475 17.4 0.146 55619 17.0 0.131 1.22 (95) 6.8 (56) 75.5 83 Marques Johnson 1791 17.6 0.13 20830 20 0.159 35158 19.0 0.147 1.37 (70) 4.82 (82) 76 84 Brad Daugherty 1600 18.7 0.151 15496 19.5 0.163 28296 19.1 0.158 1.43 (61) 4.03 (93) 77 85 Tom Heinsohn* 2577 18 0.146 15398 18.2 0.153 36014 18.1 0.149 1.35 (75) 4.85 (80) 77.5 86 Deron Williams 1779 20.7 0.147 15780 20.1 0.148 30012 20.4 0.148 1.42 (65) 4.25 (90) 77.5 87 Jerry Lucas* 1885 17.2 0.119 27231 19.2 0.145 42311 18.5 0.136 1.29 (85) 5.48 (73) 79 88 Bill Walton* 1095 19.4 0.169 11985 20.2 0.143 20745 19.9 0.154 1.43 (60) 2.97 (98) 79 89 Rajon Rondo 3538 18.5 0.131 12395 17.7 0.148 40699 18.3 0.136 1.29 (86) 5.25 (75) 80.5 90 Paul Westphal 2118 17.5 0.118 19600 19.8 0.158 36544 18.7 0.139 1.32 (80) 4.83 (81) 80.5 91 Carmelo Anthony 1955 20.6 0.116 20379 20.8 0.134 36019 20.7 0.126 1.32 (81) 4.76 (85) 83 92 Marcus Camby 2242 15.5 0.116 26537 17.9 0.141 44473 16.9 0.131 1.22 (97) 5.42 (74) 85.5 93 Lou Hudson 1792 16.8 0.112 25662 17.9 0.136 39998 17.5 0.127 1.22 (96) 4.88 (79) 87.5 94 Zelmo Beaty 2038 16.2 0.137 15217 17.7 0.16 31521 16.9 0.148 1.3 (83) 4.11 (92) 87.5 95 Toni Kukoc 2417 16 0.135 19386 17.8 0.137 38722 16.9 0.136 1.24 (93) 4.81 (84) 88.5 96 Zydrunas Ilgauskas 1872 16.2 0.136 19441 18.7 0.133 34417 17.6 0.134 1.26 (92) 4.33 (89) 90.5 97 Calvin Natt 1365 17.4 0.12 15797 18.1 0.15 26717 17.8 0.138 1.28 (88) 3.43 (95) 91.5 98 Nene Hilario 1298 15.7 0.121 14471 17.8 0.157 24855 16.9 0.142 1.27 (91) 3.17 (97) 94 [/SIZE]
i wonder do we not appreciate duncan enough because my first thought is your system falls apart at number four. also, given hakeem's ridiculous rebounding and defensive stats for his career i don't see how any system can have him outside of top ten
Interesting how Hakeem's regular season win share is very low compared to others in his position. (Empty stats sheet stuffer? ) And maybe the article and thread should about Carmelo Anthony instead of Kobe
