while i agree with everything you say, and love advanced stats, i'd like to point out in this case, that's exactly what the eye test tells you as well. I think when comparing the same position on the same team, advanced stats have less (meaningfully?) value. just an observation.
Different sources provide different information. Watching the games show me Beverley is a better defender. Almost every stat shows this. Lin playing against starters hurts him, but he is also playing with starters. Having Asik on court helps Lin a lot. I never said Lin is a bad defender. He is only not as good as Beverley. He has been abused a couple of times that caused him to get pulled. ..but almost everyone gets abused by the likes of Parker. Beverley does a little better job in those circumstances.[/QUOTE] What I'm trying to say is that its rare for pgs to actually defend an opposing pg ( or at least the elite ones ) by themselves. Even Beverley has been made yo look foolish, it happens. The elite pgs run so many pnrs that's its more of a team effort. Lin doesn't get abused, he gets scored on by elite offensive players like anyone else. Neither Lin or Beverley are bad, neither are great. Beverley is high energy, Lin gets a ton of steals. Both are above average 1 on 1 defenders.
If i'm an idiot then so is Rockets staff because they keep putting in a better defender than Lin. Where was Lin's superior defense these past few games? Open your eyes.
This is pretty much the trend with all Lin haters such as Coachbadlee - all exaggeration and no facts. Whether its how Lin fans think McHale is out to get Lin on a personal level, or Lin is a horrible defender, or backup guards coming to Lin's rescue everytime or even that Lin can't shoot. When in reality he is at 44%, better than Beverly and at par with Harden, when in reality, unlike Parsons and others, Lin is on a much shorter leash with the coaching staff, so to say Lin fans were completely wrong about McHale is ridiculous. Finally, even though Lin fans defend him rigorously but we also give Beverly credit where its due, majority of us even like Beverly. So stop blaming Lin fans, its you guys who are over exaggerating, lying blatantly and taking things too personally in trying to counter LOFs.
Beverley is a fine backup. There should be and probably is no beef between Lin and Beverley. Lin is better than Beverley, just like he was better than TD. Anyone that thinks otherwise is either a LOH or just trolling LOFs. The problem is not either of these players, it's the coach who doesn't know how to play them properly. Beverley is more effective when given proper minutes and not over extended so he can play at a high level. It's very hard to come in and play all out as if you were only gonna play 7 or 8 minutes, but then to be left in the game for 12 to 17 minutes straight. The next time you are put in, you try to then pace yourself because you have no idea how long you will be in for. McHale is not only hurting Lin's play and confidence with his weird and uncalled for substitutions of our PGs, but he is hurting Bev's ability to play at his highest level by not knowing how long he will be expected to play consistently without rest.
Almost every stat doesn't show Beverley is better, but I would honestly hope his numbers are good because, as a pretty good defender, he is matched up against bench players more often than not.
I never said Lin was superior to Beverley on D. I'm just responding to you claiming his defense is not good at all, when that's not the case. His defense has been solid this whole season.
Beverley comes in to provide a spark, not to lockdown opposing players. Their defense is about equal. Lin hs better size, gets more steals. You are trolling right, its so hard to tell and I really hope you don't believe the **** you post.
Yeah I was just arguing that guys stats. I agree with you that Lin is average to above average. I disagree with you that Beverley is the same. He's better. I would classify Bev as a good defender.
By defensive ratings I meant Dtrg, Defensive Regularized Adjusted Plus Minus (DRAPM by Jeremias Englemann) and Hoopdata defensive plays. For some reason, DRAPM ratings for this season are no longer public, but here's an article that pointed out that Jeremy was playing elite defense for the first part of the season: http://www.nba.com/hoop/the_devil_is__the_dtails_2013_02_05.html His number did come down a bit, but this was one indicator. Synergy isn't working for me at the moment, but they had him pegged as an above average defender for the pg position. Where the eye test comes in is who he's guarding and normally it's the opposing pg of the other team. Being the golden age of point guards, this isn't an easy task. It's not like he's guarding the weakest offensive player of the opponent. So for me, taking into account that these various sources have Lin producing above average to elite defensive stats against great offensive players makes him a good defender in my eyes.
Beverley is definitely a good defender, but comparing the two on the same team isn't fair considering their roles. Bev's role is to play defense. He has all this energy to come out and play defense and doesn't really have to worry about O. Lin on the other hand has to score, plays more minutes, and plays defense all while running laps on the court for 30 min a game over 70 games. Lin had a rep of being a very good defender on GSW. His rebounding, steal, and block % at GSW was really high owing to the fact that he played few minutes and his sole purpose on the court was to contribute through D (since his O sucked that year)
I don't think Jeremy is a bad defender, but I'd say Beverly is a better defender in pretty much every way. He's better at staying in front of his man, he has a better STL% and has more steals per 36 minutes, and he's a better defensive rebounder. And don't forget about blocking shots.
LMAO. Actually, I think Beverly's defensive win share would fall a bit just from playing starter minutes. His very active defensive style is hard to sustain for an entire 30+ minutes.
Who's he playing against though? And what elite rebounders are on the second unit? And what's a STL%? Beverley is good but have him run with starters and chances are those stats will come back down to earth. Lin scored a triple double in D league. On the Warriors when he sucked he was still making backup PG's like Earl Watson look bad. Against elite 1's for 30 mins a game he's up and down. That said I want McHale to start Beverley. I want to see what he's made of
RAPM was one indicator, but Lin being on that list caught everyone by surprise for a reason. Now that more data is available, RAPM seems to fall more in line with eye test/expectations. The writer was basing that off of Engelman's RAPM which was compiled really early on in the season. If you look at the one that was compiled at all star break, his defensive rapm is only + 0.3, which is average to a little bit above average.
How is his defense solid when almost every PG he goes up against scores about the same or more than he does? Augustine started to go off on him. I can only remember a few games where Lin played okay defense.
That's a fair point but we don't look at any other player through that lens, so I think it shows bias to use that reasoning with Lin. We don't say Westbrook is a better defender than Avery Bradley because he could be if that was his only focus. We don't say Harden is a better defender than * because he can be if that was his only focus. We just look at what they're doing and their output. So with that in mind, no one would ever say Westbrook is a better defender than Bradley, Harden has been a disappointing defender, and Lin is an average to slightly above average defender.
