Christ died on the cross?

This misinterpretation has already been discussed in this thread and clarified: http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=229672

And regarding the claim that was made of the Muslim God's love (which is hilarious because the Muslim, Christian, Jewish God is the exact same being) being conditional compared to the Judeo-Christian description of God. It's made clear that Allah's (God) love of his creation is unconditional.

It's similar to the Christian saying of "God Loves the sinner, hate the sin". This also rings true in Islam.

This answer below found here effectively explains that God's love is unconditional towards Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

 

Has God dealt differently with different people at different times? I believe so. But has his character, promises, and personality changed? I don't believe so. The same way that people were saved in the OT is the same way as the NT by faith in the promise of God. He promised a Savior for sin in Genesis 3:15 and those of the OT looked forward to His coming, and those of this current Church age look back at when he came.

I do agree that many people have different viewpoints of who God is. But for the most part Jews and Christians agree on the character of God.

 

But if you do much research from Arabic imams that teach the Qu'ran you can get a good since of what the language is telling us. Just like my studies in Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic have helped me to better understand the original intent of much of the Bible.

Several things, Surah 2:65 states that some Jews who broke the Sabbath were turned into apes. Also Surah 5:60 states that those who serveth idols were turned into apes and swine.

The Christians who listen to what Muhammad said are not Christians. The Qu'ran clearly teaches that all who believe in the doctrine of the Trinity are going to hell. Also those Christians who declare that Jesus is the Son of God are forbidden Paradise according to Surah 5:72 & 73 Almost all orthodox Christians believe in the Trinity and that Jesus is the Son of God. So those Christians with whom you are referring; I move are not Christians at all. In Surah 2:109, it tells Muslims to be indulgent to Christians until Allah give command.

There are of course several schools of thought on the use of the word friend. I understand, but for a majority of Islamic teachers and leaders around the world, this is the highly accepted interpretation. But some will lie to hide this also because of the jihadist allowance of deception, which happens sometimes.

Christians have more original manuscripts available to them then Islam has of the original Qu'ran. link 1 link 2

Even though we have multiple translation, just like the Qu'ran has multiple. Most have done a good job to keep the original meaning and understanding intact. The few discrepancies also have little or anything to do with orthodox Christian doctrine.

Actually the word Christian is used twice in the NT Scriptures. Acts 11:26 & Acts 26:28

I am glad you brought up the topics of eating pork, drinking, and circumcision.

First, the dietary law of the OT will not save someone's soul. Is it beneficial, yes, I believe so. God in His wisdom understood that because of a lack of sanitation and proper storage techniques it was also unsafe for his people to eat of the pig. God chose the nation of Israel as a vessel for the Messiah to come. How would He come if there are no Jews, so God did well to install dietary guidelines to allow for them to safely live. The NT is clear that there is no unclean thing anymore.

Also, there are a large number of Christians who do not believe in drinking alcohol, such as myself.

The NT is clear that circumcision is not necessary to be saved. Judaizers were following Paul and teaching people after he would leave a town that to be Christians that had to become Jews through circumcision. The account of Timothy's adult circumcision was to help him be a better witness to Jewish people who would not listen to him because he was uncircumcised.

Altogether though, you have clearly described the main difference between Islam and Christianity. Islam teaches one must be obedient to the teaching of Allah and worship Him according to what has been revealed through his prophet Muhammad and then Allah will love you and you can have eternal life.

Christianity, on the other hand, states that God does not delight in the death of anyone including the wicked; He loved all of His creation,. His foreordained plan was to reconcile rebellious man to Himself through the substitutionary death of His only begotten Son, Jesus, who is the Messiah. And because His son is perfect and without sin, death could not hold Him and He rose again on the third day as the first fruits of the resurrection to all who believe and receive His gift of undeserved love or saving grace that turn from their sin and trust Jesus Christ as Lord of All and the incarnation of God on earth.

Peace with God comes before the works of gratitude. But in Islam, one must do works for God to save you.

 

What you are saying is that Allah has common grace toward all. Which Christians agree with. The fact that you associate the God of Islam with the God Christianity is far from correct.

God chose Isaac not Ishmael to be slain by his father Abraham.
God is truine. Father, Spirit, Son.
We are created in his truine image. Mind, Soul, Body
Jesus is the Son of God.
Jesus is God.


Do these beliefs line up with what the Qu'ran teaches?

 

Well, obviously not and that's essentially one of the biggest differences in the two faiths, the stance on Jesus Christ (and even deeper the stance on God being one form vs. a triune form).

Judging by your apparent knowledge of some of the contents of the Qur'an you already know the answer to the question you posed.

We can debate and present proofs and evidences and rebuttals from our scriptures until the cows come home but in the end to each his own.

 

I understand for the most part what is taught. What I would love to know is how you came to that knowledge and what led you to your current understanding of Allah?

I am not looking for a debate but just an honest understanding of how your views and beliefs of who Allah is affect your world and the decisions you make.

For instance, the view of Allah not being father is one that I have a hard time with. How does that affect your view of Allah, is He more impersonal and less close to you because of it?

 

I just want to only address this one concept...The Christians dont have a really dont have fasts. We have lents. And according to orthodox Church teachings there are periods of feasts and lents. The Great Lent is our longest, and the Nineveh lent is the shortest. Easter and Christmas are days that are examples of feasts. During the lent, things that are pleasurable, and enjoyable types of foods are often times given up: ie meats, dairy, and eggs. During this period of lent, prayer is key and an essential focus.

The fasting that is observed by Muslims is also a means of prayer and selfreflection...often done during the time of ramadan. But before sun rise and after sunset, Muslims will eat everything without any restrictions other than it being halal.

There is no reason to look down upon one religion or another just on the basis of if we lent and you fast...doesnt make a difference if the other tenet(which is prayer) isnt observed...

 

Like I said, the Quran doesn't differentiate between them, but Muslims do. This is why the tashahud is "There is no God but God + Muhammad is his Messenger". This is why they call him the "Khaatam Al Anbiyaa2". This is why in the Hadith he has the unbelievable judgment day super ability to act as agent for God in forgiving the sins of people, and even the ability to transfer their sins to other people who have not committed those sins. Take also for example the fact that Muhammad more than likely had more than 4 wives at a time - a breach of an alleged Islamic law - which must mean that he is above the law unlike other humans.

I can write an entire book for you about how Muslims consider Muhammad to be above other Prophets and humans.

It is important to point out that the verse you selected is about Messengers rather than Prophets. There is a huge huge huge huge huge huge distinction between these two things in Islam. Messengers don't conduct miracles and they can be better than one another in their quality as messengers - that is a function. Being a messenger is not an identity, rather it is a function: delivering a message. Of the hundreds of messengers, none made a mistake in delivering the message as far as Muslims know. A Prophet is a totally different thing.

The fact that you "can't say" if he sinned is fine, but this is not the belief of most Muslims. In the case of Muhammad, there is at least one Quranic verse which clearly states that he did make a mistake and was reprimanded for it by God, so you should feel free to say that he did (if you would like a reference to this, please let me know what branch of Islam you follow so I can give you the tafseer/explanation which you normally accept). As for Jesus if you are a Muslim there is absolutely no reason to believe he didn't make mistakes or sin. By default humans sin and make mistakes, so unless you are told otherwise by God it is illogical to accept any other explanation from any other inherently errant human being.

 

Well for me personally, my knowledge of Allah came through extensive study of the Qur'an as well as reading about the life of the Prophet Muhammad. Growing up in the USA and hearing friends and folks thanking and praising a man named Jesus Christ for their good fortune (instead of God) and such was weird to me even before understanding my religion in totality.

In Islam, the most important fundamental tenet that is stressed to the utmost when it comes to the theological understanding of God is tawhid or oneness of God. The concept that Allah is one, indivisible, unique and absolute. He has no partners or anyone who shares His abilities and attributes. He is absolutely independent, self-sufficient and free of wants and needs. He is eternal, He is the Uncaused Cause. The best way I've heard it explained is "Pure Monotheism". Pure in that while Christianity and Judaism are claimed to be monotheistic, there are elements that make it questionable. (ie. the Trinitarian concept, God having sons etc.)

The Qur'an is the main source through which the concept of the absolute Oneness if God is understood since the belief is that the Qur'an is God's speech letting mankind know who He is. Through the Qur'an you learn of God's many attributes (The 99 Names of Allah ex: The Loving, The Just, The All-Seeing, The Self-Sufficient, The Compassionate, The Merciful, etc.) and what God is capable of as well as why he created Man and what God wants from us.

In the Qur'an, it's explicitly stated that God "begets not, nor was he begotten." And even goes on to state the claims of Jesus being His son and such to be monstrous lies and goes on to state that God is ABOVE such things since that would go against the Oneness concept. I learned in Catholic studies classes that their are views that Jesus was half-man, half-God. There's other views that Jesus was FULLY MAN and FULLY GOD. This doesn't sit well with me or Muslims in general because like the Qur'an says, God is above the need to do such things or to put such limits on Himself even if it's for a good cause (ie forgiving sinners). No one needs to die to be forgiven, no one needs to be sacrificed. God forgives who He wills without any charade and He is "The Most Forgiving, Most Merciful" There isn't an asterisk next to these attributes saying "I have to create a son/form myself into a man and get him/myself crucified in order to forgive."

I don't know exactly what you meant by father, but I assumed that you're speaking of the relationship God has with humankind being like Father and Children. I personally believe, and it's because of Islam, that the relationship is more like a servant and a master. Our duty is to live life according to what he's laid out, and carrying out those duties is a way of serving him, thus earning His pleasure and reward like a servant working for their master in order to receive food/money and goods.

That's not to say that God doesn't love us like a father loves a child. He does and much more so. And I feel that He's close to us and He even says so in scripture that He's "closer to us than our jugular vein". He's there, and he is understanding or our weaknesses because he created us weak in our nature. He listens to us and is aware of our thoughts and desires whether we accept or reject him. He wants whats best for us and knows whats best for us despite our struggles, flaws and imperfections.

He wants us fully dependent on him, for us to call on Him for help and turn to Him when we've screwed up, to remember Him and thank Him for all the good that comes to us. However, its not because he wants to boost his own ego or to feel big because that's already clear. It doesn't harm nor benefit Him nor makes Him any more powerful and authoritative if someone believes Him or follows Him or if someone disbelieves or rejects him. Our dependence on him is for our own benefit and a demonstration of his mercy. Our rejection of Him only harms ourselves but doesn't make Him hate his creation.

In the Qur'an, God also states that the only reason he created Mankind was for them to worship him. Worship doesn't just mean prayer and praise of God, but living in accordance to the Laws he laid out.

So as a Muslim that is aware of my purpose in life. I know that everything I do I should do it while keeping God in mind and thus, serving Him. Using the Qur'an and Sunnah (sayings and practices of the Prophet Muhammad) as a reference tool, I live my life and make my everyday decisions big and small in accordance to the rules that God has laid out.

Avoiding alcohol, pork, gambing, drugs, premarital sex. Lowering my gaze towards those of the opposite sex. Taking the time out to worship God through prayer. Standing up for justice and human rights. Being a good neighbor, a good father to my children, a good son to my parents, a good spouse. A good upright citizen in the community that I live in. Living a morally decent life. Making sure the way I earn my living is in a lawful, honest way. Giving back to the needy. All these are forms of worship and serving God.

As for sinning, yeah I'm going to mess up and not do things 100% perfectly. I know that and more importantly, God knows that. That's why I can repent to him, ask forgiveness for my mistakes and try not to repeat them. Since God is "Most Forgiving, Most Merciful" I can only hope He erases any sins I have committed when I sincerely repent for them. Again it goes back to God wanting us to depend on Him for OUR benefit, NOT His.

Hope that helps.

 

Forgive the question but I'm curious and have no time to read the entire thread to see if this question is addressed.

Does the Islamic faith address the things the bible claim. For example, the virgin Mary, miracles like walking on water and feeding the masses, and the resurection.

Just trying to gain an understanding here. Thanks in advance.

 

Yes. In fact, Jesus' name is mentioned in the Qur'an 25 times, more times than the Prophet Muhammad (only 4 times.) Interestingly enough, the Prophet mentioned the most in the Qur'an is actually Moses (133 times).

There is even an entire chapter of the Qur'an entitled "Maryam" as in the Virgin Mary and goes on to narrate the story of Jesus, Mary and the Virgin Birth from the Muslim perspective.

In the Qur'an, the events surrounding the miracle Virgin birth are told, like the dialogue between archangel Gabriel and Mary where Mary is given news of bearing a son who will be a Prophet of God.

When this news was given to Mary, she asked the angel how she could conceive and have a child when no man has touched her.[Qur'an 3:43] The angel replies: "Even so: Allah creates what He wills: When He decrees a plan, He only needs to say, 'Be,' and it is!" [Qur'an 3:47]

A notable miracle that is not in Christian scripture but in the Qur'an is that Jesus speaks as a infant from the cradle, defending his mother's honor when accused by temple elders of her village of being a loose woman and conceiving the child via illicit relations.

There are brief mentions of Jesus in the Qur'an performing miracles through the permission of God rather than his own power like healing the blind, rising the dead back to life and feeding the masses via a table of food sent from the heavens.

Other than that the Qur'an doesn't go very much in depth but does speak of the ascension of Christ where God protected and rescued Jesus from being crucified by his opposers and denying that Christ was seized and killed.

 

So god has no needs or desires yet he created man for the sole purpose of worshiping him? Buddy, that means he desires praise. BTW if God is omnipotent and all powerful then he would have the power to be in as many forms as he chooses to be at the same time.

I grew up Muslim, but as I delved deeper into understanding the "prophet" I soon realized that someone like Muhammad had great deal of materialistic motive to create his religion. I mean if I could get away with convincing people that I had the right to as many wives as I desired I would do it too.

 

Bro, just because God created us for his worship doesn't mean he desires/needs praise. He created us to see who would be obedient and follow the rules he set forth and who would just do whatever the eff they want. It's often said that God is worthy of all praise. And considering the sheer magnitude of Him, all that He has created in all its variety and intricate details and functions, he IS worthy of praise. However, us praising him doesn't make Him any more powerful, any more grand. It doesn't raise his throne any higher. If everyone in the entire world believed there was no God and just did whatever, it wouldn't bother him any. He wouldn't shed a tear or emit any emotion or hurt from it. It only hurts creation because then we'd be failing at our purpose of creation. He could easily wipe us out and move onto something else, no problem and He even says so. But of course, that's not the point.

Praise, obedience and worship are merely the means or the variables to show that we're fulfilling the purpose of our creation.

As for God choosing if he wants to come into as many forms, I'm sure he could if he wanted to like you said, but doesnt because again, He deems it unneccessary and beneath him to do so, and He says so. There's a verse in the Qur'an stating that if there were multiple Gods, or others with the abilities he have, they'd be in a war for supremacy, fighting for who leads them. It'd be utter chaos. There can only be One.

Regarding the comment you made about the Prophet and material gain, that claim is just laughable. The Prophet Muhammad didn't live a luxurious materialistic hedonistic life. Every morsel of goods he had, he gave away. He literally gave away the shirt he had on his back. He slept on leaves or just the bare ground. He lived in utter poverty. As for the wives, most of those were not his call but ordained by God, some he didn't even consummate the marriage with. Some were for political reasons and to demonstrate goodwill towards other tribes and groups, not to sow his oats.

I understand you have developed some sort of sour disposition about Islam. I don't know the extent of it or the sources or people or experiences that brought this about and planted doubt but all I can say is may you be guided to what is best for you.

 

Everything that I need to know can be found in the Bible. There is actually some reasonable advice about what God wants from us - not just "myths" and "fairy tales."

Read John 17. The only prayer in the Bible Jesus prays himself. Jesus' prayer is just beautiful and awe-inspiring. (The Lord's Prayer was his recommendation to the audience about praying to God, not his own personal prayer)

 

How can A be possible? Nobody knows if A is possible. Anyone who says A is possible is wrong.


Your reasoning is flawed.

 

We call that other prayer the model prayer. John 17 is truly the Lord's prayer.

 

That's a simple question. We only know of God what he has communicated to us. Knowledge of God and hence knowledge of lifes purpose and what He wants from us is conveyed thru word and deed. Prophets and messengers chosen by God informed people about God/Our purpose/what he wants fromus and corresponding scriptures which are Gods dictation of those same things.. So to answer your question, authentic scripture informs us of our purpose and what God wants from us.

 

Everything I need to know can be found here