That article is kind of bogus. A burner is the name used for a type of tear gas. If the plan was to use the tear gas (which is also known to sometimes start fires) then it doesn't mean they had a plan to burn him alive. Once the fire started, letting Dorner choose to come out or not was the right thing to do from the law enforcement side of things. The guy had already killed one of their deputies. He'd set up ambushes for other law enforcement agents. Rushing inside or anything like that would have been poor judgement. I don't see anything wrong with how the final apprehension of Dorner went down. I do see that injustices of the LAPD on a broader scope is a huge problem. As you said in another post, the fact that so many people would cheer on Dorner against the LAPD speaks very poorly of them. The fact that LAPD shot an innocent woman while blasting holes in a truck that happened to look like Dorner's is a huge mistake, and part of the problem. It seems like they just wanted him dead and were hoping that he wouldn't get the chance to speak all the damaging things he could have said about the department. If Dorner wanted to make a bigger difference to the department, he should have gone somewhere public and given himself up, gone to trial, and spilled as much as he could about the wrong doings of the department.
I agree with your post overall, but was about to add "and not kill anyone." But the sad, sad truth is that, if he hadn't murdered anyone, he would not have gotten one minute of a reporter's time with his "story of corruption." He would just have been that bitter ex-employee who was fired. This is in no way to say it justifies his (alleged) murders. (On that score, the last murder, at least, of the deputy in the Big Bear area, had witnesses, so I don't even think we need to bother with "alleged" there.)
CNN two days ago was talking about the "burner" or the "let the ****er burn" thing when I turned it on for about 15 minutes. I'm not exactly sure where the cries of it being censored are showing up then.
Given the LAPD's history they certainly deserve the distrust which does give Dorner's claims some legitimacy. That said any sympathy that Dorner deserves IMO went out the door once he started killing people. As far as the fire I am not ruling out that the LAPD did it intentionally but the evidence for it is pretty thin. The most likely explanation still seems to be that they tried to force Dorner out, used standard tear gas which didn't do much so then went to more heavy duty tear gas with the intent of forcing him out but not burning him. It was a bad risk that they miscalculated on regarding how likely Dorner would surrender and how likely the cabin would burn down.
i think it was a case of wanted dead and only dead based on what he allegedly did (the murders) and what he allegedly knew (LAPD corruption). Dorner didn't want to live and the LAPD/SBCS were more than happy to comply. If Dorner was smart he would have given himself up with camera's rolling to make sure he was not abused or killed on camera. If he would have been then all hell would have broke loose and LAPD would be in deep ****. If they arrested him peacefully then he would have his day in court to say his truth. If Dorner played it right he could have won (perception) and accomplished what he wanted.
I think this is a fantasy. If he was peaceably arrested and had his day in court, he would have discovered that his ability to testify and to confront witnesses regarding police corruption would be severely curtailed by the judge, since they aren't germaine to his murdering of people. The judge isn't going to let Dorner use his court as some kind of soapbox. Of course, he can still talk to reporters or write a book or whatever. Even then, however, I'm betting he'd run into 2 problems. One, he'd have credibility problems because his initial police brutality accusation could be seen as self-serving, plus there's that whole murder thing. And two, I think he'd probably not know as much as people would like to think. He wasn't high in the ranks at all and didn't work very long, and so he probably wasn't privvy to much information.
Hard to believe professionals would miscalculate the mixture of a wooden structure and devices called "burners" which have been known to start fires. Seems a little too tidy and convenient. Maybe not, though.
I got interested in this tear gas they used and was trying to figure out, vaguely, if the use of 'incendiary tear gas' was cavalier/negligent or was a pretext for burning the cabin down. So, I've learned some stuff. * The type they used is usually called CS gas. Here's wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CS_gas. It is a very popular form of tear gas for riot control because it has less lethal side-effects than other types (though it can still be lethal). It's commonly used by police all over the world. * It was used in the Waco seige along with another type called methylene chloride. The latter is more flammable than CS. CS has a flashpoint of 197 degrees Celsius, if that means anything to anyone. * I read/skimmed a detailed study on whether the tear gas caused the fire at the Waco complex, or made it worse. Here it is: http://www.apologeticsindex.org/pdf/havens.pdf. Their conclusion was the fire was caused by the explosion of an LPG tank and that the tear gas neither started that fire nor materially contributed, because the concentration used was far too low, given the large size of the complex. * I can't find other stories of CS starting fires. Most deaths seem to occur due to inhalation, even when shot into private homes in Bahrain. * That doesn't mean that CS didn't start this cabin fire. I think it had to have. It's a much smaller space, so concentrations would be higher. But, it's credible to think the police did not expect a fire to erupt when they threw the cannister in because it is often used to smoke out barricaded people and it doesn't seem to have a reputation for catching fire all the time. * I think the cops do themselves no favors by calling it 'incendiary tear gas' or a 'burner.' That makes it sound like napalm. I suppose it's good for cops to keep the flammability top of mind when they're using it, but it's terrible PR.
Here's a thread with a couple of anecdotes from people who saw cs gas cannisters starting fires: http://www.firehouse.com/forums/t69305/
I think they were well aware that a fire might break out but were thinking Dorner would just run out and they would take him down.
I am not an expert on this but from what I've heard the "incendiary" and "burner" might refer more to how it makes people feel than how flammable it is.
I can believe that for 'burner' but not 'incendiary.' One, that's a fancy word. Two, there seems to be a whole class of grenades referred to as incendiaries that rely on combustion to have their effect. From what I've read, CS is a solid at room temperature and can either be made into an aerosol by mixing it with something, or by heating it up. So, I think the cannister is actually heating up to release the CS gas. A marine in that forum link I gave describes it as a blowtorch and says it has caused brushfires in his experience. Someone also relates a story of a fire caused by a flashbang that happened to have landed on a couch. It sounds like there's some luck involved regarding where it lands and how close it is to flammable materials. Now, what I'm wondering about is the single gunshot that was reportedly heard. Has anything been written on this. I assume if he shot himself before burning, the autopsy would find it.
You can't burn to death a person who is considered a fugitive -- unless you hit him with powerful sarcastic remarks that cause him to melt.
As I said I am not an expert but I have heard certain tear gas referred to by how it makes people feel. I am not surprised though that certain tear gas does need to be heated, or creates heat through the chemical reaction. As far as a flashbang I actually have personal experience with them and they are basically an M80 firecracker with powder. When they explode it spreads the powder out blinding someone. I haven't heard anything about the single gun shot but that would make sense it might be his suicide shot.
To answer the question about the single gunshot it was a suicide shot to the head by Dorner. http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...unshot-wound-to-the-head-authorities-say?lite Dorner died of self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head, authorities say Christopher Dorner, the former LAPD police officer who carried out a vengeful rampage against his fellow ex-cops and others, died of a single, self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head at the end of an intense firefight with police in rural Big Bear, Calif., authorities said Friday. At a late-afternoon news conference, San Bernardino County authorities said that the cause of death was determined by an autopsy conducted Thursday by the county Coroner’s Office. Authorities had been unsure whether Dorner killed himself, had been struck by a deputy's bullet or had died in a fire that engulfed the cabin during the shootout. The coroner's finding still must be finalized. In their most detailed account to date of the final days and hours of the hunt for Dorner, 33, San Bernardino County sheriff’s officials said they tried to force the suspect to surrender before accidentally setting the cabin where he was holed up on fire when they shot a pyrotechnic chemical device inside. Sheriff John McMahon also detailed the extent of the arsenal that Dorner had with him in his final days, which he spent eluding searchers in the mountainous area east of Los Angeles. Among the items recovered from the cabin where Dorner died and other locations and vehicles were numerous assault weapons; semiautomatic handguns; a .308-caliber, bolt-action sniper rifle; high-capacity ammunition magazines; a total of 10 suppressors or silencers; tear gas and smoke canisters; a military-style load-bearing vest; and a military-style Kevlar helmet, he said. The sheriff also confirmed that Dorner spent most of his time on the run hiding in a condominium just steps away from the command center set up to find him. He said deputies had visited the unit, which was locked, on the evening of Feb. 7, but received no answer when they knocked on the door and then moved on. “It was locked and nobody answered,” he said. “… We were not going to kick the doors in.” Sheriff’s Capt. Gregg Herbert also elaborated on the tactics used during the confrontation with Dorner at the cabin in the Seven Oaks area, saying that when deputies responded to the scene they noticed tracks in the snow in front of the cabin where Dorner had taken refuge. As Deputy Alex Collins, Detective Jeremiah Mackay and other officers were conversing in the street in an attempt to devise a plan to check on the cabin, Dorner opened fire on them, striking both deputies multiple times, Hebert said. The other deputies returned fire, and dodged an onslaught of bullets to get to the injured officers and drag them out of the line of fire, he said. MacKay died later at an area hospital; Collins remains hospitalized after undergoing multiple surgeries. Dorner died hours later inside the cabin, after he and law enforcement officers exchanged hundreds of rounds. Police had been seeking Dorner since last week, when they say he launched a deadly revenge campaign against the Los Angeles Police Department over his 2009 firing. Before launching his onslaught, he posted a rambling 1,400-word manifesto on Facebook in which he allegedly wrote that killing was “a necessary evil” to avenge his firing and also threatened other law enforcement officers and their families. Before killing the deputy in the San Bernardino mountains, Dorner is suspected of slaying a couple in Irvine and a police officer in Riverside. “Self Preservation is no longer important to me,” he wrote in the manifesto, a copy of which was made available to the media by authorities. “I do not fear death as I died long ago on 1/2/09.” 84comments
Burn him alive? You can't do that to someone who died by the means of a .45 caliber bullet to the head. They simply expedited the last will and testament of Dorner that stated that he wished to be cremated...
