Fair enough. I guess in the same light that you feel you will not be affected by an attack, I feel I won't be affected by a prevention (taking of liberty). And you are not selfish, in the end everyone is looking out for themselves.
To take the chance on what? That some cop might one day search through your cell phone? That's potentially worth somebodies life to you?
Is it really a bad thing? This is about rights vs searches on the borderlands. Have you been out there? I used to gamble down in Maverick country and cross over to Mexico through Eagle Pass to visit friends and go eat. Even when the border violence picked up, this area really wasn't bad. Border cops have never searched me and could tell I wasn't Mexican (which is I guess a nice surprise, b/c I've been mistaken for Mexican all over the freakin world...nothing against it, but refreshing) so never asked for my papers. Anyhow, let's say I go back there and I get stopped by some border fed who's having a bad day and gives me lip and I give him lip back. He takes my cell phone, my kindle fire, and says I can pick it up later even though I haven't done anything wrong. That would suck. I would feel violated. I would be violated. I'd be calling every connection and fed I know b****ing to see if I could get my stuff back. I hope that's really the most that could happen wrong in regards to establishing a 4th amendment free zone. If I get detained, I'd be screaming "this ain't China, b****" too all the feds around. This law is unamerican in a historical sense (then again, isn't there a history of US policy violating the Bill of Rights for all sorts of reasons...I need to brush up on some history channel), but it's out there to catch bad guys. A good fed on a good day is trying to stop human trafficking or drug traffickers or murderers. It's one thing to try cheat the system...hell, I get it. I try to deal in cash and avoid taxes when possible too. But man, I just have a strong moral opposition to hard core criminals who don't give a damn about anyone but themselves. If you're intimidating and murdering people just to protect your own pockets, then you're scum to me. And there are tons of scum out there who are thriving financially. And there are many good cops and good feds who play by the rules and try to catch these scum who don't give a damn about any rules. From a constitutional perspective, all scum deserve certain rights and protections. From a personal moral perspective, I'm okay with the laws being changed to help cops and feds catch these scum. There was this great Vaclav Havel quote that I can't remember word-for-word but the gist of it stayed with me for over 15 years. He was saying that a "constitution" is just a piece of paper. It guarantees nothing. It means nothing. There are many states with constitutions that fail to protect freedoms. What's important is how those who govern and those who have power conduct themselves on a daily basis. When I think about people protecting Constitutional rights, I try to break it down to daily interaction basis. What is the real world implication of this....perhaps because I'm not sophisticated enough to discuss pure theory. I just don't get why it's so damn important that 4th Amendment Rights should be absolute...and I'm not looking for "because it's in the Constitution." And because while I think they're good for freedom, but shouldn't be absolute, mainly when in conflict with other rights, like the obligation of the government to protect its citizens, then I understand this new law and it really doesn't irk me that much. And personally, I feel like it will come down to the type of people carrying out these searches. Are they good feds? Are they following up good intel? Or are they just being jerks? And that's the real world impact to me. Jerks will have more power to jerk people around. And good feds will have more power to catch the criminals. It's bad and good: it violates the 4th Amendment, but improves the power of the government to protect its citizenry overall. I guess we'll see how this plays out. I'm tempted to go down to the borderlands and check out how things are nowadays.
It's against the constitution and the rights it grants to citizens of this country. Not just one somebody lost their life defending that. My rights are worth keeping.
Wrong. You can completely avoid any airport searches by opting not to fly. When you decide to avail yourself of the airports, you consent to a search. On the other hand, walking down the street or being in your home and the police demanding that you hand over your cell phone for a search is exactly the type of government excess that the Fourth Amendment was written to prevent.
No fool. Its about the boundary between the government and its citizens. With no boundary, then the government can do whatever they want. And by government, I don't mean Obama and his SS squad busting through your door. That little punk kid that you picked on in grade school, the same one who barely became a cop, would have the authority to do whatever he wants. You wouldn't have a cohesive government, but a government that would bully its citizens.
Liberty: freedom from control, interference, obligation, restriction, hampering conditions, etc.; power or right of doing, thinking, speaking, etc., according to choice. Freedom from arbitrary or despotic government or control.
One, don't call me "fool". I am far more educated than you or anyone else in your family. I see that you're like 35+ years old, I'm 25 and I promise I am already more successful than you. So take that and swirl it gently and slowly around your erect nipples. That "government" is just waiting to come get ya! Government is going to knock down your door and make a sandwich in your house. Government is just waiting to oppress you. If they have the power to check cell phones, it's just a matter of time before they are drone striking us all!
Like someone said earlier, no one who lost their life gaining independence for this country could fathom the world we live in today. I don't believe you can fully shape everything around us in the context of the teachings people who lived 230 years ago. Things change. We'll have to agree to disagree because we fundamentally have different outlooks on life. If it saves someones life the government can go through my phone all it wants.
What else of yours are you willing to let them search? I suppose everything if it may save a life, correct? Any concern that they may collect data and prosecute you for something else entirely while searching your personal belongings? Any concern that authorities abuse this?
Nope, I do not live in a state of hyper-vigilance that cops/the government are out to get me the first chance they get. Facebook is collecting my data. Google chrome is collecting just about every key stroke I enter. Know how that is going to affect me...later on I'm going to go to Walmart and buy some socks for cheap and eat a big mac. Sure they can search my phone and my laptop if that will save someones life. And no I would not be ok with them searching my butthole or coming to my house at 3 a.m. without reason (just saying that before someone tries to think of the most extreme example possible), be reasonable folks. And I don't want to hear this "slippery slope" argument. This isn't going to lead to cops busting down everyones door to do surprise butthole inspections.
Well, to be fair, I think they'd only be interested in your butthole if your were squirreling electronic devices up there. The data-mining by Facebook and Google is really a different argument and plenty of folks disagree with what they're doing. Of course, those who are hyper-vigilant may choose to avoid signing up for Facebook or using Chrome altogether. I do want to people to as safe as they can be, but worry that authorities will abuse their abilities or the data they collect. I'm cynical and skeptical this way because we see corruption and abuse all around us. Anyhoozen...
If they are allowed to search your phone without a warrant, the logical extension of that is that they can listen to your calls without a warrant. That has never been ok under the Fourth Amendment. You can say that you don't want to hear a slippery slope argument, but between this and certain provisions of the Patriot Act, we are slowly eroding our Fourth Amendment protections. At some point it will become meaningless.
For the record I don't think you can base everything around the way the world was 230 years ago either. However, the thing about rights is that they should be inherit no matter what world we live in. The govt. can ask to go through my phone, and if I wish to grant their request which I probably would, it would no problem. But if they have reason to go through it without my permission then they should have to provide proof. I understand we'll agree to disagree, and I don't look down on anyone just because they see things differently than I do. I'm cheering for the feds to stop human and drug traffickers as well. I just don't want to sacrifice my rights in the cause. There isn't a cause that's worth that.
All very good points. I concede that my view was very simplistic. Keeping an eye on how far the government is taking their power is necessary, even in a case like this. Even though some will abuse whatever power is given to them I still trust that the our government is for the most part good, and will not be coming for our buttholes.
That is the problem. Government is not for the most part good. That is the reason why there is such a large number of Fourth Amendment cases out there.
I don't agree that government is not good...nor do I think it's not bad. It's just a bunch donks like you and me who get paid by our tax dollars to run America Inc. Some of them do a good job most of the time, and some of them suck. Violating this historically protected right really comes down to a case-by-case basis imo. I think I may have similar views with torture. If some dumbass is being a dumbass, then that would suck and I'd try to use my connections to get him disciplined if I was the victim. Now, if the intel is good and these hard-working feds are trying every which way to stop some crime boss who banks b/c of drug trafficking, children trafficking, intimidation, and murder....and the scum is thriving b/c he uses his means to win while knowing that feds have all these rules...well, I understand. I mean doing this doesn't make us China. We're not detaining citizens left and right. I don't know...I get the different perspectives, but like any protection or law, it just comes down to the individual circumstance for me.
You could not be more wrong. The Constitution does not say that there can be searches just because on a case by case basis. The protection is absolute. Probable cause for a search is a very low bar. If a cop cannot even show that, they do not have the right to search, period. You may be a little less trusting of the government if you read all of the court cases and saw the things that law enforcement has tried over the years to get away with.
