Who was better in their 4th year? Steve Francis or James Harden?

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Except that Steve Francis took some of the most inefficient dribbles, loved the half-court game, wasn’t as aggressive in getting to the free-throw line, and relied on this athleticism more than his basketball intellect and played point guard. James Harden on the other hand replies on a lot of fakes, drives to the line as often as he can, and doesn’t try to jump through the roof all the time but replies on foul calls and the eurostep. His game is efficient when there is a good flow to the offense. Also, he’s a two guard. I pick Harden if I had to choose to build a franchise around one of them.

I love Steve and for a year or two he was the best scoring point guard of his class, his contemporaries were Baron Davis, Jason Terry and Andre Miller. Not to mention that you can make an arguement that he was better than Marbury and Billups in those years as well. One of the reasons why his trajectory was so fast and then fell even faster was that his game relied on super athleticism and isos, and that was not going to last. His rise and fall is almost as tragic to me as Yao’s story…

I’m going to go off topic a bit but comparing the two players and thinking about Francis has made me think about the Rockets bad luck. We, Rockets fans have had to endure a lot misfortunes from a personnel standpoint. The “team that never was” of the 80’s, the Dream and Barley trio with Drexler/Pippen teams in the 90’s, the Francis and Cat Iso show, the era of T-Mac and Yao “the best 1-2 punch in the NBA” at one point. So much potential in those different eras!

 

Francis was a pretty good player in his early years. Still had his faults, but weren't as magnified as when he got older, his FG% got worse (he never shot as efficiently again), and he lost athleticism.

The comment that Francis was a SG in a PG's body is also particularly insightful. Even though Harden handles the ball often as a PG will, he's a true SG in a true SG body. Kobe isn't the PG, Lebron isn't the PG, etc. but both handle the rock a lot. But you still need a true PG on the roster. Steve wasn't a true PG and wasn't a true SG. Tweeners have always been tough. Even with today's scoring dominant PG's, there's a reason why people still question a Westbrook but not CP3 - both dominant the ball and can be great scorers, but one "gets it" as a point guard where the other one doesn't. Steve never "got it". Harden doesn't have to in that sense.

Anyway, as also already noted in this thread, Harden is younger, has a higher PER, higher efficiency metrics (TS%, EFG%), and doesn't rely on athleticism the way Steve did.

Moreover, I'd argue that Harden is more likely to see his efficiency improve even more in the coming years, especially if and as the team improves around him. He's a classic case of a player that gets more comfortable the longer he is in a given role.

 

Keep in mind when looking at those per game stats that Steve was playing an incredible amount of minutes. Per 36 minutes it drops down to about 19-5-5.

I guess what seals it for me? I'm incredibly frustrated at Harden's turnovers. He has the fourth highest turnovers per possession of any 25 point scorer in history. But '03 Francis actually turned it over even more.

Francis at least occasionally gave a damn on defense. But the offensive divide is far to wide for him to even come close.

 

The biggest criticism of Stevie was his turnovers and Jeremy Lin turns the ball over just as much without the upside. Too bad Stevie couldn't shoot without having to dribble the ball beforehand.

 

I remember CB4, barkley not gusto, saying that he wanted to take stevie under his wings, but stevie wasn't having any of that. steve never grew up, stayed peter pan until general van gundy exiled him. He never had the bball IQ that harden has. And though harden is pretty athletic, he doesn't rely on his athleticism as much as francis did. Harden is so crafty.

 

While those numbers are close enough to call it a wash, I'd say Francis was more explosive athletically, while Harden has way more finesse. This should translate to a longer more productive career long term for Harden, I would think.

 

James not lebrick but Harden

 

Obviously Harden though Francis also had a more rounded game (but he was also older). The irony of Stevie Franchise is that you can't actually build a franchise around him while Harden is already justifying his franchise player tag.

 

Had Francis stayed healthy in 2008, the Rockets would have had that actual roster in 2009.

 

I'm kind of surprised to see how close their numbers are. I remember being excited when Steve Francis would break 30 points. He almost NEVER broke 40 points.

I almost expect Harden to score 30 points. And it's his 40 plus games I get excited about. Scoring seems so much easier for Harden. I suppose a lot of that has to do with his ability to get to the line though.

 

Stevie Franchise. One of my all time favorites. Bringing back memories of Walt "The Wizard" Williams
Shandon Anderson
Kelvin Cato
Dan Langhi
Jason Collier
Cuttino Mobley
Oscar Torres
Juaquin Hawkins
Eric Piakowski
Moochie Norris.

Just to name a few, wow I actually miss those days.

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I say it's a toss-up.

 

That was a dark era in Rockets history, but man, how much fun was it to watch Steve Francis. Him and Cat made those years bearable to watch, too bad he couldn't get it together.

 

What about contracts? Did Franchise ever make max $$$? And if you sent Harden and Mobley to Orlando, do you get more than Tmac in return?

 

I think Harden is better on the basketball court....but Francis was really good with the ROCK in his hands

 

Yeah, except the only reason the Rockets were able to re-sign Francis in 2007-08 was that he had declined so much that he was a cheap free agent. Imagining that we could have had prime Francis and McGrady together is just a fantasy.

 

Awwww, look at this. Someone is using box score statistics to compare players. Isn't that just so adorably quaint?

No but seriously, this is ridiculous. Harden blows Francis completely out of the water. And if you used box score stats, you would think Monta Ellis wasn't trash either.

 

I agree with you. They are such different players IMO. I have to go with Harden as the better player by quite a bit. Maybe because I remember Steve walking the ball up the court and always getting trapped in the corner. Steve just did not have a high BB IQ his success mostly based on his athleticism. Harden is a much more skilled scorer IMO.

 

Lin runs the offense 100 times better than Francis ever did IMO.