I loved Biggio be he wasn't even the best player on his team ANY season he played. What does that say about his Career? He had fantastic longevity and consistency but his chase for 3000 was almost pitiful towards the end.
That he played the vast majority of his career with another HOFer? Only Biggio's final season was terrible. Wade Boggs had a -0.4 WAR his final season. Cal Ripken had a -0.9 WAR. Lou Brock limped there. Almost everybody does. It's hard to play at a high level in your late 30s/early 40s.
If this really has to be explained to you, you don't know or follow the game anyway. Also, it's Clemens.
a lot of really stupid stuff being parroted in this thread. 3000 hits. elite defense. more double than any right-handed hitter in the history of MLB. that's "first ballot" material. if you disagree, you are entitled to your incorrect opinion. :grin:
puckett was much better, yes he probably got a sympathy vote but doesn't that guy have a world series ring. lou brock is probably considered a better defensive player and also has a ring robin yount you're probably right but a very similar player to biggio offensively. ozzie smith is revered for his defense so lets not get into that
Puckett wasn't a much better player. Puckett's career OPS is .837 compared to Biggio's .796, which is weighed down by playing much longer. Biggio has 280 more steals, 84 more HRs, 756 more hits, 254 more doubles. Stats are remarkably close between ages 24-35 (Puckett's career). Lou Brock played LF, and was terrible defensively. He also wasn't as good as Biggio offensively. He had the stolen base record (though his success rate was only 75%), and 3k hits, which is why he is in the HOF. He is probably the weakest 1st ballot player. Yount is generally considered the most similar to Biggio, but he was a 2-time MVP. He was underappreciated by the HOF voters, as he should have been named on at least 90% of ballots, but wasn't. Ozzie Smith was great defensively, but a pretty weak offensive player throughout his career. If those guys are 1st ballot HOFers, Craig Biggio is too. Robin Yount finished with 77.5% of the vote, despite 2 MVPs, 3k hits, and playing SS/CF. It happened because he played in Milwuakee. He was an all-star only 3 times. He freaking won an MVP in a season he didn't make the all-star team. Here are the 10 most similar players to Biggio based on BR's similarity scores: 1. Robin Yount 2. Derek Jeter 3. Joe Morgan 4. Paul Molitor 5. Roberto Alomar 6. Cal Ripken 7. Johnny Damon 8. Brooks Robinson 9. Lou Whitaker 10. George Brett There are 32% of voters at the BBWAA that obviously consider Biggio to be Johnny Damon.
I agree that Biggio deserved to go in, but have never seen anyone describe his defense as elite. I would say it was more like adequate when he was young moving toward turrible as he got older (both at 2B and in the outfield). Yes he has 4 Gold Gloves, but the voting record for that award is even worse than the HOF balloting.
OMG. Puckett had a .318 average???????????????????? He only had a .360 OBP to go with that average. Biggio had a career .363 OBP. Something to be said for getting on base. Ages 24-35: Puckett - .318/.360/.477 1071R 1085RBI 207HR 134SB (76 CS) Biggio - .295/.386/.440 1227R 746RBI 164HR 338SB (106 CS) Puckett was a special player, but so was Craig Biggio. Their primes aren't that different like I said, and Biggio last a lot longer, which counts. You can call Puckett a better player during their primes, thats fine by me, but to say he was much better is ridiculous.
You don't usually hear of elite defensive 2B any more. I thought Biggio was good defensively not great. I liked Alomar's D better. I certainly wouldn't consider him in the class of an Omar Vizquel or Ozzie Smith who truly were the best of the best (though they played the other side of the bag).
LOL... so you randomly pull two statistics that overwhelmingly favor Kirby Puckett and it's time to wrap the discussion up?... Biggio had 4,600 more PAs (which is not irrelevant), so his counting statistics are obviously greater - but as juicystream alluded, the first 11 years of each of their careers (which is when Puckett's ended) are not terribly dissimilar. Biggio (7,438 PAs): .292/.380/.437/.817 with 152 HRs; 706 RsBI; 1,120 Rs; 346 SB; 54.2 WAR. Puckett (7,831 PAs): .318/.360/.477/.837 with 207 HRs; 1,085 RsBI; 1,071 Rs; 134 SBs; 48.2 WAR. Puckett won 6 GGs and finished in the top 10 in MVP voting 7 times. He also won 2 WS rings. Biggio: 4; 3 and, of course, 0 rings. I would guess most would give the edge to Puckett - but it's closer than you're giving credit.
Anybody that says Biggio was never an elite player weren't paying attention in the 90's From 94-98 Biggio was a perennial MVP candidate He had the highest WAR on his team 3 times.
Shocking to see folks on a Houston Rockets board argue so vehemently against Biggio especially with his numbers. There are so few Astros in the hall of fame and correct me if I'm wrong, he would be the ONLY player in the hall who played his entire career in Houston. Combine that with the fact he never juiced in the steroids era vs. players that did, and you have someone who was flat out robbed. I feel bad for him.
He'd be the only Astros cap in Cooperstown. Lets not claim that he never did steroids as a fact. It's a fact that there is no evidence of him ever doing so.
Biggio had a better career than Puckett and it isn't even really close. Their prime years were close in value, but Biggio had a more productive total career (62 war vs 48) and a higher peak (9.7 best year vs. 7.6). Biggio's 97 was a lot better than any season puckett ever put up. Aside from being a better baseball player biggio as has him beat on just being a decent human being; by all account Puckett was a world-class jerk.
The Twins of the 80s had some stacked lineups with the likes of Kent Hrbek, Gary Gaetti, Chili Davis, and Tom Brunansky. So, no, Puckett wasn't some sort of one-man show or anything.
