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The Topic of Gun Control and How it Relates to Recent Mass Shootings

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Harrisment, Dec 14, 2012.

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MadMax Member

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solid said: ↑

I am former federal officer, trained extensively in combat shooting. The real issues in this horrible incident do not relate to gun control. The real issues are primarily mental health intervention and school security. Other issues include violent video games, the morality of the culture, and child socialization including parental supervision. No sort of gun control not even "no guns" of any kind would have prevented this very sick individual from committing this horrific crime. He could have tossed molotov cocktails through the window, he could have set off a homemade explosive, he could have set off a natural gas explosion and so on. Someone set on destruction is best stopped by, yes, you guessed it, ARMED security.

The Left's obsession with "gun control" is a fantasy, an illusion, an enormous mistake. It reduces freedom and solves no problem. The right to bear arms makes us the most difficult country in the world to "take over" by military force. With armed security present on the scene, the children would have been safe. Unfortunately, they were in a "no gun zone."

Had any public official been approached by this maniac, their security detail would have eliminated him with the firearms that they carry. Think about it. These are the people you want to vote for gun control.
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Yes, because in other countries that have significant gun control there's a huge rash of schools and movie theaters being blown up by natural gas and molatov cocktails.

The gun violence in this country is absolutely out of control compared to the rest of the world...and we justify it with this vague antiquated notion of being able to defend ourselves from our own government which has the ability to destroy the planet 4x over. Makes me sick.

#601 MadMax, Dec 20, 2012

myco Member

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MadMax said: ↑

Yes, because in other countries that have significant gun control there's a huge rash of schools and movie theaters being blown up by natural gas and molatov cocktails.
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Yeah, but their populace isn't armed, which makes them easy to "take over" by military force.

#602 myco, Dec 20, 2012

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MadMax Member

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myco said: ↑

Yeah, but their populace isn't armed, which makes them easy to "take over" by military force.
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Someone has seen Red Dawn too many times.

#603 MadMax, Dec 20, 2012

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magnetik Member

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MadMax said: ↑

Someone has seen Red Dawn too many times.
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happened in Egypt.. most populated muslim country in the MidEast. Actually happened in a lot of countries recently.. including Syria. Do I think it will happen here.. no. but not as far fetched as one may think.

#604 magnetik, Dec 20, 2012
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Today I learned that Egypt and Syria have been invaded by Communists.

#605 myco, Dec 20, 2012
VanityHalfBlack Member

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solid said: ↑

I am former federal officer, trained extensively in combat shooting. The real issues in this horrible incident do not relate to gun control. The real issues are primarily mental health intervention and school security. Other issues include violent video games, the morality of the culture, and child socialization including parental supervision. No sort of gun control not even "no guns" of any kind would have prevented this very sick individual from committing this horrific crime. He could have tossed molotov cocktails through the window, he could have set off a homemade explosive, he could have set off a natural gas explosion and so on. Someone set on destruction is best stopped by, yes, you guessed it, ARMED security.

The Left's obsession with "gun control" is a fantasy, an illusion, an enormous mistake. It reduces freedom and solves no problem. The right to bear arms makes us the most difficult country in the world to "take over" by military force. With armed security present on the scene, the children would have been safe. Unfortunately, they were in a "no gun zone."

Had any public official been approached by this maniac, their security detail would have eliminated him with the firearms that they carry. Think about it. These are the people you want to vote for gun control.
Click to expand...

You talking about a Demilitarized zone in our very own backyard??? You want military force in elementary schools??? Fool, you crazy???

#606 VanityHalfBlack, Dec 20, 2012
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magnetik said: ↑

happened in Egypt.. most populated muslim country in the MidEast. Actually happened in a lot of countries recently.. including Syria. Do I think it will happen here.. no. but not as far fetched as one may think.
Click to expand...

Newsflash: We the People ain't winning a fight against the Pentagon. Sorry.

#607 MadMax, Dec 20, 2012

VanityHalfBlack Member

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MadMax said: ↑

Yes, because in other countries that have significant gun control there's a huge rash of schools and movie theaters being blown up by natural gas and molatov cocktails.

The gun violence in this country is absolutely out of control compared to the rest of the world...and we justify it with this vague antiquated notion of being able to defend ourselves from our own government which has the ability to destroy the planet 4x over. Makes me sick.
Click to expand...

Right??? Federal officer, LOL... Gotta love this guy's logic at trying to prevent something like this from happening... This guy been sniffing to much gun powder...

#608 VanityHalfBlack, Dec 20, 2012
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solid said: ↑

I am former federal officer, trained extensively in combat shooting. The real issues in this horrible incident do not relate to gun control. The real issues are primarily mental health intervention and school security. Other issues include violent video games, the morality of the culture, and child socialization including parental supervision. No sort of gun control not even "no guns" of any kind would have prevented this very sick individual from committing this horrific crime. He could have tossed molotov cocktails through the window, he could have set off a homemade explosive, he could have set off a natural gas explosion and so on. Someone set on destruction is best stopped by, yes, you guessed it, ARMED security.

The Left's obsession with "gun control" is a fantasy, an illusion, an enormous mistake. It reduces freedom and solves no problem. The right to bear arms makes us the most difficult country in the world to "take over" by military force. With armed security present on the scene, the children would have been safe. Unfortunately, they were in a "no gun zone."

Had any public official been approached by this maniac, their security detail would have eliminated him with the firearms that they carry. Think about it. These are the people you want to vote for gun control.
Click to expand...

You obviously have no idea about what you are talking about. While it was a good thing for you to have served the public in the past, that doesn't make your argument any better. To the contrary, your arguments are acutally quite oxymoron.

I am glad you are a former officer.

#609 YallMean, Dec 20, 2012
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magnetik said: ↑

happened in Egypt.. most populated muslim country in the MidEast. Actually happened in a lot of countries recently.. including Syria. Do I think it will happen here.. no. but not as far fetched as one may think.
Click to expand...

WTF? I am at a loss of words, shocked by the amount of lack of logic and disingenuity. Any self-respected humanbeing will not say something like that.

#610 YallMean, Dec 20, 2012
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I think it's awesome that the "guns don't keel peeple, peeple keel peeple!" crowd is unaware that the rest of the civilized world is the counter example to their cries.

#611 Dave_78, Dec 20, 2012
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Dave_78 said: ↑

I think it's awesome that the "guns don't keel peeple, peeple keel peeple!" crowd is unaware that the rest of the civilized world is the counter example to their cries.
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Oh yeah, like South Africa?

#612 Svpernaut, Dec 20, 2012
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Svpernaut said: ↑

Oh yeah, like South Africa?
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Didn't you get enough when you were run out of town in the other thread?

#613 QdoubleA, Dec 20, 2012

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QdoubleA said: ↑

Didn't you get enough when you were run out of town in the other thread?
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I wasn't run out of anywhere sweetheart. It's your story sister, tell it like you want it. I took the debate to the you know... debate thread.

#614 Svpernaut, Dec 20, 2012
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MadMax said: ↑

Newsflash: We the People ain't winning a fight against the Pentagon. Sorry.
Click to expand...

If enough people want it, the people will always win. Maybe not right away, maybe not in a lifetime, but eventually, democratic ideas will win out.

#615 rimrocker, Dec 20, 2012
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rimrocker said: ↑

If enough people want it, the people will always win. Maybe not right away, maybe not in a lifetime, but eventually, democratic ideas will win out.
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I agree with this completely. As it stands, 47% of Americans own a gun and 50% are for stronger gun laws. We are a country divided on this issue, and in no way is this something that is going to change one way or the other soon.

#616 Svpernaut, Dec 20, 2012
rimrocker Member

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solid said: ↑

I am former federal officer, trained extensively in combat shooting. The real issues in this horrible incident do not relate to gun control. The real issues are primarily mental health intervention and school security. Other issues include violent video games, the morality of the culture, and child socialization including parental supervision. No sort of gun control not even "no guns" of any kind would have prevented this very sick individual from committing this horrific crime. He could have tossed molotov cocktails through the window, he could have set off a homemade explosive, he could have set off a natural gas explosion and so on. Someone set on destruction is best stopped by, yes, you guessed it, ARMED security.

The Left's obsession with "gun control" is a fantasy, an illusion, an enormous mistake. It reduces freedom and solves no problem. The right to bear arms makes us the most difficult country in the world to "take over" by military force. With armed security present on the scene, the children would have been safe. Unfortunately, they were in a "no gun zone."

Had any public official been approached by this maniac, their security detail would have eliminated him with the firearms that they carry. Think about it. These are the people you want to vote for gun control.
Click to expand...

Cool. I take it you were an LEO for some agency, right? Which one?

I think it is tough to say what the real issue is as this is a very complex topic. I do think that the first thing we do is stop dam from leaking, which means making it really tough for people to get ahold of guns that were designed solely to kill lots of people very fast.

Here's a good article from the Judge who sentenced the Tucson shooter...

Last month, I sentenced Jared Lee Loughner to seven consecutive life terms plus 140 years in federal prison for his shooting rampage in Tucson. That tragedy left six people dead, more than twice that number injured and a community shaken to its core.

Loughner deserved his punishment. But during the sentencing, I also questioned the social utility of high-capacity magazines like the one that fed his Glock. And I lamented the expiration of the federal assault weapons ban in 2004, which prohibited the manufacture and importation of certain particularly deadly guns, as well as magazines that can hold more than 10 rounds of ammunition.

The ban wasn't all that stringent — if you already owned a banned gun or high-capacity magazine you could keep it, and you could sell it to someone else — but at least it was something.

And it says something that half of the nation's deadliest shootings occurred after the ban expired, including the massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary in Newtown, Conn. It also says something that it has not even been two years since Loughner's rampage, and already six mass shootings have been deadlier.

I am not a social scientist, and I know that very smart ones are divided on what to do about gun violence. But reasonable, good-faith debates have boundaries, and in the debate about guns, a high-capacity magazine has always seemed to me beyond them.

Bystanders got to Loughner and subdued him only after he emptied one 31-round magazine and was trying to load another. Adam Lanza, the Newtown shooter, chose as his primary weapon a semiautomatic rifle with 30-round magazines. And we don't even bother to call the 100-rounder that James Holmes is accused of emptying in an Aurora, Colo., movie theater a magazine — it is a drum. How is this not an argument for regulating the number of rounds a gun can fire?

I get it. Someone bent on mass murder who has only a 10-round magazine or revolvers at his disposal probably is not going to abandon his plan and instead try to talk his problems out. But we might be able to take the "mass" out of "mass shooting," or at least make the perpetrator's job a bit harder.

To guarantee that there would never be another Tucson or Sandy Hook, we would probably have to make it a capital offense to so much as look at a gun. And that would create serious 2nd Amendment, 8th Amendment and logistical problems.

So what's the alternative? Bring back the assault weapons ban, and bring it back with some teeth this time. Ban the manufacture, importation, sale, transfer and possession of both assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. Don't let people who already have them keep them. Don't let ones that have already been manufactured stay on the market. I don't care whether it's called gun control or a gun ban. I'm for it.

I say all of this as a gun owner. I say it as a conservative who was appointed to the federal bench by a Republican president. I say it as someone who prefers Fox News to MSNBC, and National Review Online to the Daily Kos. I say it as someone who thinks the Supreme Court got it right in District of Columbia vs. Heller, when it held that the 2nd Amendment gives us the right to possess guns for self-defense. (That's why I have mine.) I say it as someone who, generally speaking, is not a big fan of the regulatory state.

I even say it as someone whose feelings about the NRA mirror the left's feelings about Planned Parenthood: It has a useful advocacy function in our deliberative democracy, and much of what it does should not be controversial at all.

And I say it, finally, mindful of the arguments on the other side, at least as I understand them: that a high-capacity magazine is not that different from multiple smaller-capacity magazines; and that if we ban assault weapons and high-capacity magazines one day, there's a danger we would ban guns altogether the next, and your life might depend on you having one.

But if we can't find a way to draw sensible lines with guns that balance individual rights and the public interest, we may as well call the American experiment in democracy a failure.

There is just no reason civilians need to own assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. Gun enthusiasts can still have their venison chili, shoot for sport and competition, and make a home invader flee for his life without pretending they are a part of the SEAL team that took out Osama bin Laden.

It speaks horribly of the public discourse in this country that talking about gun reform in the wake of a mass shooting is regarded as inappropriate or as politicizing the tragedy. But such a conversation is political only to those who are ideologically predisposed to see regulation of any kind as the creep of tyranny. And it is inappropriate only to those delusional enough to believe it would disrespect the victims of gun violence to do anything other than sit around and mourn their passing. Mourning is important, but so is decisive action.

Congress must reinstate and toughen the ban on assault weapons and high-capacity magazines.

Larry Alan Burns is a federal district judge in San Diego.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion...-assault-weapons-ban-20121220,0,6774314.story
Click to expand...

#617 rimrocker, Dec 20, 2012
solid Member

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YallMean said: ↑

You obviously have no idea about what you are talking about. While it was a good thing for you to have served the public in the past, that doesn't make your argument any better. To the contrary, your arguments are acutally quite oxymoron.

I am glad you are a former officer.
Click to expand...

Insults but no counter argument.

#618 solid, Dec 20, 2012

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VanityHalfBlack said: ↑

You talking about a Demilitarized zone in our very own backyard??? You want military force in elementary schools??? Fool, you crazy???
Click to expand...

"Military force?" Where did I say that? Every heard of armed security guards? Yes, I want them in schools.

#619 solid, Dec 20, 2012
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide
260 million people were killed by their own governments last century.

This is a good article by a liberal democrat on the on gun rights.
http://www.constitution.org/2ll/2ndschol/104ali.htm

This is a serious right for serious people. It takes the individual from servile dependency on the state to the status of participating citizen, capable of making intelligent choices in defense of one’s life and ultimately one’s freedom. This conception of citizenship recognizes that the ultimate civil right is the right to defend one’s own life, that without that right all other rights are meaningless, and that without the means of self-defense the right to self-defense is but an empty promise.
Click to expand...

#620 Agent94, Dec 20, 2012

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