Gasol is not a back-to-the basket player PERIOD. The dude's like tinman (in the movie, not CF). He just has no heart
There's a huge gap between who he is as a player and how the Lakers have been using him for the last season +.
Horry4theWin, you and DonatasFanboy both make compelling arguments on either side of the Gasol/Lakers trade motivation debate. However, I really think you are underestimating the financial motivations of some of the Lakers' more recent moves. The Odom deal--while trumpeted as the organization trying to accommodate a disgruntled player--was first and foremost about Jim Buss's desire to shed salary and reduce the team's luxury tax burden. As DF said, there was NO WAY they knew at the time they could turn that trade exception into a player the caliber of Steve Nash. That Nash trade was a very fortunate outcome for the Lakers, not the plan. Also, the Lakers traded away a first round pick later that season in order to dump Derek Fisher's salary. While Jordan Hill is no scrub, he's also not a guy most teams cough up first rounders for. Not unless it's part of a bigger salary dump. Again, that move had Jim Buss's fingerprints all over it. Cut payroll. Now, the Nash and Howard trades are clearly instances in which most owners--even cheaper ones--would be willing to take on additional salary to get a star player. And maybe Jim Buss still does categorize a $19 million Pau Gasol as the same class of "star-worth-his-salary" as a $9 million Steve Nash or a $19.5 million Dwight Howard. But we don't know for sure. What we DO know for sure is that the more punitive luxury tax kicks in next year and that the Lakers will be far and away the hardest hit by it. Will they wait until the offseason to address the luxury tax concern, giving this core a full season to gel? That seems perfectly reasonable to me. But it also seems perfectly reasonable to me--viewing this through the prism of a cost-concious Jim Buss--to try to save as much money as possible now in order to allocate some current savings to next year's tax payment. I'm not saying that either one of you two is right or wrong. You're both making great points. But on the financial motivations aspect for the Lakers, I don't think it's as clear-cut a "non-factor" as Horry4theWin makes it out to be.
Again, putting things into context . The Lakers were willing to trade both Pau Gasol/Odom previously for Chris Paul, whose contract expires after this season. Had that trade went down, they still have to resign him to a longer deal. By that time Odom finds out about the trade and isn't very happy. It makes no sense to keep a player like that when he himself doesn't want to play any more, especially when they were getting rid of the triangle. Derek Fisher was traded when they were able to get another starting PG, Ramon Sessions, who had a player option btw that he didn't pick up.They also still had Steve Blake as a backup and ended up bringing back Darius Morris this off-season. Jordan Hill became a productive player that they ended up resigning, so again willing to carry additional salary for the right players. I simply don't think a salary dump for a bunch of Rockets bench players is the ONLY factor that the Lakers would looking for if they trade Gasol.
Agreed, but you have argued that financial considerations are NOT a factor for the Lakers. I only inserted myself into your debate to state that such considerations are at least one factor for the Lakers and have been before. Otherwise, I have no issues with the points you're making here.
I think you're misunderstanding and I continue to repeat that the Lakers are trying to win now. Maybe you really want Pau Gasol on the Rockets? that's cool but I don't think it's going to come that easy. Dumping both Pau Gasol and MWP for just cap relief does not fit those goals if they really hope to win a championship. One thing everyone knows that the Lakers have an advantage at is size. Getting rid of Pau Gasol just for that makes them worst. The Lakers also don't have much salaries after 2013/2014. So again, the Lakers have shown they've gotten rid of salary, sure, but they've also shown that they were willing to pay it for the right players.
A Gasol + Asik pairing could work well. Quite frankly I'd rather bet on 2yrs with Pau than Lin's 3rd year. If Lin doesn't improve enough that third year salary is going to scare away teams. It's 8.x mil for tax but 15 mil cash money. Pau could even be trade bait at draft time.
We will have to see how things play out for awhile before anything could be possible, but if we see Gasol's PT and value take a slide if he ends up in D'Antoni's doghouse (entirely possible), then the Lakers might be looking for players who better fit the system. This of course has no chance of happening until Nash comes back and we see how the pieces fit. I don't think anyone is arguing that the Lakers would make a move simply for the sake of a salary dump, but salary is of course something every team considers when they are looking at $60-$70 million in extra salary by retaining one player. Their cost-benefit ratio for paying extra salary is certainly different for the Lakers than other teams, but that doesn't mean that their cost-benefit ratio is nonexistent.
Depth to win a championship? Morris/PPat is not much and would make them weaker come playoff time. There's also reports that they are going after Pietrus now.
The trade that was suggested was Morris/Pat/Douglas/Cole. Take that to any Lakers forum, and see what kind of response that you get. Of course the cost-benefit is non-existent, but it's also a reason why they would be willing to pay those costs given the right players they get in return. Getting rid of Pau/MWP won't do much for them, if they aren't bring any real impact players in return. Not to mention, Dwight and Kobe probably won't be happy if they get rid of their core players and reduce their chances at winning a championship.
Eh, I would take it to a Laker's forum, but I don't really care. I was just on the General board of RealGM and this was the common sentiment: "It's funny how the people defending Gasol's play this season are people who have only watched a couple of Laker games this year or flip to the Laker game when their team has a commercial break. If you watched the game in its entirety yesterday, it should be obvious to you why MDA sat Pau out. With Pau in the game we were -23, with Jamison we were +10. Pau just either doesn't care anymore, or he's completely lost it. The Kings were specifically targeting him in the 4th qtr on Wednesday with 5 iso plays in a row on Gasol, and either scored or got fouled on all of them. That is just pathetic. If he were doing anything good on offense, I suppose it wouldn't be such a big deal, but when MWP is consistently out-performing you on the OFFENSIVE END in games, you know you have problems."
As if RealGM is any better...I'm sure you've seen the sentiment the overall sentiment about Lin on the General Board and how most people assumed the Rockets were going to be one of the worst teams in the NBA. Mike D'Antoni has just begun implementing his system, without 2 veteran PGs btw. Just because people are criticizing Pau Gasol, which they should be, doesn't mean they are advocating a trade to the Rockets. They actually want other players, not just the salary cap relief and players from the Rockets that don't improve their chances at winning a championship. http://forums.lakersground.net/viewtopic.php?t=151258&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=1725
Here is a quote from a long-time poster on the RealGM Laker board, and this seems like a common sentiment. I will post a trade there and see what people say. "The the thing with Gasol is. If he's not producing for L.A., you don't necessarily need to get huge upgrades to improve the team. If the Lakers had two stretch 4s including Jamison and a decent backup wing they'd very likely have beat Memphis in Memphis without Nash. They're that close. Pau has done so little this year, it's not that hard to replace him. It's one reason why I'm keen on the idea of splitting Pau's value into first rounders and expiring contracts so that at least you can move pieces around for role players that fit. I'll take the team that has an underrated PF that plays his role well (Jason Maxiell as your starting PF), because he'll give you the deep mid-range, the rebounding, the P and R D and you can count on him to do that for you each and every night. Then when a great possibility comes along like a Nash or a Howard you have the flexibility to go get someone."
That's cool, let's see if they take the proposed trade of TD/Morris/Cole/Pat. Remind them of the salary cap relief as well. Most of the suggested trades so far, which includes some with cap relief, does not involve the Rockets.
That RealGM Lakers fan is just parroting the Basketball Reasons rationale almost word for word, even down to the "split the value of Gasol" verbiage. Nothing new or original coming from his brain at all. The only difference is that Pau Gasol is even more worthless now than he was then. Except, oddly enough, he'll be "valuable" again next season, but only in a contractual sense. He'll still be the walking corpse of Pau Gasol, no doubt, but that expiring contract is going to be extremely valuable to a team looking to save some money and fix some mistakes of their own.
Yep but I'm guessing they have never heard of Marcus Morris or Patterson. :grin: Anyways, I believe he could be obtained but it's just a matter of how much Morey is willing to give, and I hope that he wouldn't give anything beyond what I already suggested.
