1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Oliver Stone's "The Untold History of the United States"

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Mathloom, Nov 22, 2012.

Tags:
Page 2 of 3
  1. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2008
    Messages:
    21,112
    Likes Received:
    22,573
    <object id="flashObj" width="486" height="412" classid="clsid:D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=9,0,47,0"><param name="movie" value="http://c.brightcove.com/services/viewer/federated_f9?isVid=1" /><param name="bgcolor" value="#FFFFFF" /><param name="flashVars" value="videoId=1973931181001&playerID=29474209001&playerKey=AQ~~,AAAAAAAA9pg~,GnOHJwU2r3sFsJRSf1bvZ_iPYmWg8io0&domain=embed&dynamicStreaming=true" /><param name="base" value="http://admin.brightcove.com" /><param name="seamlesstabbing" value="false" /><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><param name="swLiveConnect" value="true" /><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always" /><embed src="http://c.brightcove.com/services/viewer/federated_f9?isVid=1" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" flashVars="videoId=1973931181001&playerID=29474209001&playerKey=AQ~~,AAAAAAAA9pg~,GnOHJwU2r3sFsJRSf1bvZ_iPYmWg8io0&domain=embed&dynamicStreaming=true" base="http://admin.brightcove.com" name="flashObj" width="486" height="412" seamlesstabbing="false" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowFullScreen="true" swLiveConnect="true" allowScriptAccess="always" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/index.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash"></embed></object>

    <object id="flashObj" width="486" height="412" classid="clsid:D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=9,0,47,0"><param name="movie" value="http://c.brightcove.com/services/viewer/federated_f9?isVid=1" /><param name="bgcolor" value="#FFFFFF" /><param name="flashVars" value="videoId=1971728869001&playerID=29474209001&playerKey=AQ~~,AAAAAAAA9pg~,GnOHJwU2r3sFsJRSf1bvZ_iPYmWg8io0&domain=embed&dynamicStreaming=true" /><param name="base" value="http://admin.brightcove.com" /><param name="seamlesstabbing" value="false" /><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><param name="swLiveConnect" value="true" /><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always" /><embed src="http://c.brightcove.com/services/viewer/federated_f9?isVid=1" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" flashVars="videoId=1971728869001&playerID=29474209001&playerKey=AQ~~,AAAAAAAA9pg~,GnOHJwU2r3sFsJRSf1bvZ_iPYmWg8io0&domain=embed&dynamicStreaming=true" base="http://admin.brightcove.com" name="flashObj" width="486" height="412" seamlesstabbing="false" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowFullScreen="true" swLiveConnect="true" allowScriptAccess="always" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/index.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash"></embed></object>

    <object id="flashObj" width="486" height="412" classid="clsid:D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=9,0,47,0"><param name="movie" value="http://c.brightcove.com/services/viewer/federated_f9?isVid=1" /><param name="bgcolor" value="#FFFFFF" /><param name="flashVars" value="videoId=1973877681001&playerID=29474209001&playerKey=AQ~~,AAAAAAAA9pg~,GnOHJwU2r3sFsJRSf1bvZ_iPYmWg8io0&domain=embed&dynamicStreaming=true" /><param name="base" value="http://admin.brightcove.com" /><param name="seamlesstabbing" value="false" /><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><param name="swLiveConnect" value="true" /><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always" /><embed src="http://c.brightcove.com/services/viewer/federated_f9?isVid=1" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" flashVars="videoId=1973877681001&playerID=29474209001&playerKey=AQ~~,AAAAAAAA9pg~,GnOHJwU2r3sFsJRSf1bvZ_iPYmWg8io0&domain=embed&dynamicStreaming=true" base="http://admin.brightcove.com" name="flashObj" width="486" height="412" seamlesstabbing="false" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowFullScreen="true" swLiveConnect="true" allowScriptAccess="always" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/index.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash"></embed></object>
     
    #21 Mathloom, Nov 24, 2012
  2. Commodore

    Commodore Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2007
    Messages:
    33,571
    Likes Received:
    17,546
    America is Awful but has Made Me Rich, a ten part series by Oliver Stone
     
    #22 Commodore, Nov 24, 2012
  3. Nook

    Nook Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2008
    Messages:
    60,014
    Likes Received:
    133,286
    Someone has a thin skin.

    Also I don't remember him calling America awful in the series. He basically said Russia was the biggest reason Germany lost because they had no choice. He even called Stalin a brutal dictator.

    Seriously, it is common knowledge that the Russian casualties were enormous.
     
    #23 Nook, Nov 24, 2012
  4. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 1999
    Messages:
    23,126
    Likes Received:
    10,165
    The Russians have always said we won WWII with money and they won WWII with blood.
     
    #24 rimrocker, Nov 24, 2012
  5. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2008
    Messages:
    21,112
    Likes Received:
    22,573
    "If you don't think America is amazing, you must think America is awful!" said the factory-grade Americans.
     
    #25 Mathloom, Nov 24, 2012
  6. Dairy Ashford

    Dairy Ashford Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    14,585
    Likes Received:
    1,888
    Confusing the Private, Global Film Industry with Domestic Government Foreign Policy and Military Actions, a one-post misstatement based on a life-long delusion by Commodore
     
    #26 Dairy Ashford, Nov 24, 2012
  7. Buck Turgidson

    Buck Turgidson Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2002
    Messages:
    101,076
    Likes Received:
    103,510
    Everyone should denigrate people who believe differently, because no matter what you believe you're on the right side.
     
    #27 Buck Turgidson, Nov 25, 2012
  8. Buck Turgidson

    Buck Turgidson Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2002
    Messages:
    101,076
    Likes Received:
    103,510
    Yep. Lend-Lease and whatnot.
     
    #28 Buck Turgidson, Nov 25, 2012
  9. Buck Turgidson

    Buck Turgidson Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2002
    Messages:
    101,076
    Likes Received:
    103,510
    #29 Buck Turgidson, Nov 25, 2012
  10. BigBird

    BigBird Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2012
    Messages:
    4,444
    Likes Received:
    286
    Yeah the Germans and Soviets were brawling on the Eastern front. If you ever get the chance, listen to the podcast 4 part series "Ghosts of the Ostfront" by Dan Carlin. It's fantastic.

    As for the show, no matter who makes it I always enjoy well done history docs. When does it air on showtime? I'll be sure to set my DVR.
     
    #30 BigBird, Nov 25, 2012
  11. HayesStreet

    HayesStreet Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 1999
    Messages:
    8,507
    Likes Received:
    181
    This is as much a documentary as JFK.
     
    #31 HayesStreet, Nov 25, 2012
  12. HayesStreet

    HayesStreet Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 1999
    Messages:
    8,507
    Likes Received:
    181
    The Soviets took Berlin because Eisenhower decided to let them take casualties. That was a political decision, not a military one.
     
    #32 HayesStreet, Nov 25, 2012
  13. Buck Turgidson

    Buck Turgidson Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2002
    Messages:
    101,076
    Likes Received:
    103,510
    Funny, I thought that was common knowledge, not "untold".
     
    #33 Buck Turgidson, Nov 25, 2012
  14. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2008
    Messages:
    21,112
    Likes Received:
    22,573
    Bump.

    I think if you're in the US, you can watch it free on showtime:
    http://www.sho.com/sho/oliver-stones-untold-history-of-the-united-states/season/1#/index

    Episode 3 is "The Bomb". Much footage I hadn't seen before, interesting new side stories about how the Japanese were going to surrender anyway and that they actually surrendered because the Soviets entered. Makes two particular views all the more disgusting: "we saved a lot of lives by dropping it" and "it ended the war".

    I can't find Episode 4. It's about the cold war.

    Episode 5 is rise of the... well, you know.

    Completely shaped the Middle East into what is is today, as well as last decade's South America and a few more decades of East Asia. Overthrow of Mossadegh (only democratically elected leader in the history of Iran to this day) is a story I know in extreme detail, it had a massive impact on everything around though I wouldn't go as far as Oliver Stone as to say it directly resulted in the Islamist takeover of the Iranian revolution.

    Also, funded 80% of the French attack to retain Vietnam as a puppet state and meddling in South Vietnam elections? Wow.

    [​IMG]

    Still not finished watching episode 5, but am enjoying this series thoroughly even though I disagree with its somewhat left-leaning bias at times.
     
    #34 Mathloom, Dec 30, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2012
  15. ROXTXIA

    ROXTXIA Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2000
    Messages:
    20,910
    Likes Received:
    13,042
    Oliver Stone? Left-leaning bias?

    Since when?

    (dramatic pause)

    :grin:

    But he does show some interesting tidbits amongst all the America-is-corrupt-as-hell bits. That a sub's Soviet political officer forestalled its commander's firing the nukes when communication with the outside world was garbled, perhaps preventing WWIII? Good stuff.
     
    #35 ROXTXIA, Dec 30, 2012
  16. HayesStreet

    HayesStreet Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 1999
    Messages:
    8,507
    Likes Received:
    181
    The Japanese were not planning on surrendering anyway. They drafted the entire population including women on the home islands in July, with the stated intent of fighting to the death. The only impetus Soviet entry gave was cutting off resources from Korea and Manchuria. It is true that Truman dropped the bomb as a warning to the Soviets and for the coming Cold War, but that it saved millions of lives isn't false. It would have depended on whether we would have invaded the home islands or not. Leftist historical critiques have always hinged on the opinion that we could have blockaded the home islands instead of invading, and not risked the lives in an invasion. Depends on what would have happened in lieu of dropping the bombs. As for their eventual surrender, that is mainly because they were start enough to know it was better to surrender to the US than the Soviets. Timing of the bombs to surrender makes a pretty good case on causality.
     
    #36 HayesStreet, Dec 30, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 30, 2012
    1 person likes this.
  17. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2008
    Messages:
    21,112
    Likes Received:
    22,573
    I think you should watch it. There is reference to internal Japanese government statements, and it additionally goes through the theories and public relations statements which were made in that regard. Your views don't reconcile with what the Japanese were saying, and it is impossible to believe that US government statements at that point are any more valid than those of Japanese gov't internal comms.
     
    #37 Mathloom, Jan 2, 2013
  18. txppratt

    txppratt Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2006
    Messages:
    2,987
    Likes Received:
    296
    ive been watching these on Showtime and i think they're great. if you can watch these, do it.

    it's refreshing to see a more objective perspective on post WWII world/US history.
     
    #38 txppratt, Jan 8, 2013
  19. pippendagimp

    pippendagimp Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2000
    Messages:
    27,790
    Likes Received:
    22,792
    you didn't like 'wall street' or 'platoon' or 'nixon' or 'scarface'?
     
    #39 pippendagimp, Jan 8, 2013
  20. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2008
    Messages:
    21,112
    Likes Received:
    22,573
    Will comment on episode 7 later. Must watch for any American in their 20's or younger. Just astonishing storytelling. I said it before, I'll say it again - I won't call it objective, but I will certainly call it another very real, at least as fact-based a perspective as the stories which they teach us in all those McGraw Hill books.

    #empire #bewell
     
    #40 Mathloom, Jan 9, 2013
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 2 of 3

Share This Page