[Religion] being friends with the kuffar (non-believer)

I try not to be obnoxious about my atheistic views but since the arguments here get annoying.

And thanks.

 

I am the same way. It can be bad both ways.

Religion is real in a sense that it will always exist in the minds of many. No one will remember my existence 150 years from now, but people will remember the prophets. Whether or not I, or anyone, thinks they existed does not chance the fact that religion will continue to exist. I am not any more real than religion in my mind.

 

They will also remember Hitler and Osama Bin Laden. People remembering anything doesn't mean much about its legitimacy.

 

Refer to the post I quoted. It is the reason we debate and will continue to debate.

 

wtf? Thats not what he was talking about.

 

I find it highly doubtful that your mauslim obsession only lingers on the internetz. Considering your passion of the topic I'm sure this stuff influences your daily life in many ways.

 

Which only shows that you are dumb.

 

I don't think there are too many posts about Muslims where you haven't chimed in with some sort of response. You really need to spend some quality time away from the internet and interact with live human beings. Your posts reek of someone who doesn't have balance in their life. I;m not making this post to mock you, just trying to help out a person in need of help. I'm just curious how many other boards you frequent, cause you do spend a good quantity of time on here and I'm sure this isn't your only place you vent.

 

You call everyone an idiot or dumb if they don't agree with you. You must be better than everyone and more an entitled to an opinion/life.

 

Correct. Thanks for noticing .

 

There is misunderstanding here

Quran 5:51 Don't take Jews and the Christians as friends ?!

5:51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends: They are but friends to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.​

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لَا تَتَّخِذُوا الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَارَ*ىٰ أَوْلِيَاءَ ۘ بَعْضُهُمْ أَوْلِيَاءُ بَعْضٍ ۚ وَمَن يَتَوَلَّهُم مِّنكُمْ فَإِنَّهُ مِنْهُمْ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّـهَ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الظَّالِمِينَ ﴿٥١﴾

The first point to be noted is that, in the verse above, the word Awliya is often incorrectly translated as friends (Awliya is the plural and its singular is wali and the concept is walaah). As a result, many people are under the misconception that this verse commands Muslims to distance themselves from Non-Muslims and to avoid friendship with them. This is far from the truth, as we shall see after examining the meaning of the word Awliya.God in the Qur'an says:

[42:9]
Or have they taken Awliya besides him? But Allah - He is the wali, and He gives life to the dead, and He is over all things competent.
​

أَمِ اتَّخَذُوا مِن دُونِهِ أَوْلِيَاءَ ۖ فَاللَّـهُ هُوَ الْوَلِيُّ وَهُوَ يُحْيِي الْمَوْتَىٰ وَهُوَ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ* ﴿٩﴾ ​

3:122 ...Allah was their WALI (protector), and in Allah should the faithful (Ever) put their trust.
​

http://comparativreligion.blogspot.com/2012/11/quran-551-dont-take-jews-and-christians.html

Fقiend in Arabic = صديق

 

Megalomania. He was diagnosed some time ago.

 

And an advanced form of aspergers.

 

Excellent post with very relevant information

 

Hate threads like these because Quran translations are waaayyyy too iffy. If you're going to read it, do so with an interpretation from a source you can trust.

 

Aren't like 95 % of Islamic literature "sponsored" by the Salafists in Saudi Arabia? Doesn't that sooner or later lead to Islamists "defining" Quran interpretation for all Muslims?

 

Since when are Salafis Islamists? and wtf is an islamist? Aren't 95% of words like "islamists" and "salafists" defined by Muslim haters in the West? Don't you think we know what you're trying to do by defining every word related to Islam in a negative connotation?

Let me be ATW for a minute. You are an idiot. And dumb. I love cjerking with izakdavid and miss DD.

 

If you are one of them, of course you will blame "the West" and "Muslim haters" for your own shortcomings.

Nothing new there.

 

For Muslims, these three things are separate (separate books, separate authors, separate everything):

Quran
Hadith
Interpretation aka Tafseer

The only place where these thre intertwine is in translations. In Arabic, there are no parantheses. Anytime you read a translation with parantheses, you must immediately remember that they are the personal opinion of the translator.

99.99% of Arabic Qurans in the world are identical regardless of who funds them, who writes them, who publishes them, when they were printed, where they were printed, etc. It's not similar to the Bible where there is, for example, an "authorized King James" version etc. The oldest Quran in the world and the newest Quran in the world are the same. The shiite and sunni and sufi Qurans are the same. The Wahabist and the Ahmadi Quran are the same. Same book, always. These sects differ only in the two other sets of books: hadith and tafseer.

The power of the distributor or funder or interpretor lies in the hadith and tafsir. Further, it lies in the ability to (arbitrarily) increase the credibility of some Islamic scholars over others.

 

Sorry to do this mate...

Here are the worlds most respected scholarly translations of Surat Al-Ma'idah [5:51] into English, and some of its context to reveal the true meaning behind this Quranic verse.

Further down after talking about Jews, Christians and unbelievers having diseased hearts and being hypocrites the Quran gives confirmation of the above Verse...

And if Muslims are to take on Jews & Christians as friends, they are said to be of them or just like them... The ones that Allah transformed into apes and pigs.

Further down we read that anyone who believes in Jesus as the incarnation of God on Earth, or as the Son of God are doomed to hell. Also anyone who associates other gods or intercessors with Allah (shirk) are also doomed to hell. (funny thing is Muhummad did this during the 'satanic verses' with Al-Lat, Al-Mannat & Al-Uzza...but that's another story, he got confused between the voice of Allah & the voice of Satan)

Then Muhummad tells us that even King David & Jesus cursed the Jews for not believing in Allah...How, I don't know, when Allah was revealed to the people 600 years after Christ by Mohummad? But that is another story.

And then in verse 5:81 it is reaffirmed that Allah does not want Muslims to take on Christian or Jew apes and pigs to be friends...

So to answer your question...(From my friends at The Religion of Peace, because I'm to lazy right now to go into detail...)

Unbelievers are described by Muhammad (in the Qur'an) as "the vilest of animals" and "losers." Christians and Jews are hated by Allah to the extent that they are destined for eternal doom as a result of their beliefs. It would make no sense for Muhammad to then recommend them to be taken in as friends by Muslims. In fact, the Qur'an plainly commands believers not to take unbelievers as friends.


The Qur'an:
Qur'an (5:51) - "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."

Qur'an (5:80) - "You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide." Those Muslims who befriend unbelievers will abide in hell.

Qur'an (3:28) - "Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them..." This last part means that the Muslim is allowed to feign friendship if it is of benefit. Renowned scholar Ibn Kathir states that "believers are allowed to show friendship outwardly, but never inwardly."

Qur'an (3:118) - "O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people, they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand." This verse not only warns Muslims not to take non-Muslims as friends, but it establishes the deep-seated paranoia that the rest of the world is out to get them.

Qur'an (9:23) - "O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers" Even family members are not to be taken as friends if they do not accept Islam. (This is the mildest interpretation of this verse from the 9th Sura, which also advocates "slaying the unbeliever wherever ye find them").

Qur'an (53:29) - "Therefore shun those who turn away from Our Message and desire nothing but the life of this world."

Qur'an (3:85) - "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers."

Qur'an (3:10) - "(As for) those who disbelieve, surely neither their wealth nor their children shall avail them in the least against Allah, and these it is who are the fuel of the fire." Those who do not believe in Muhammad are but fuel for the fire of Hell (also 66:6, 2:24. 21:98).

Qur'an (7:44) - "The Companions of the Garden will call out to the Companions of the Fire: "We have indeed found the promises of our Lord to us true: Have you also found Your Lord's promises true?" They shall say, "Yes"; but a crier shall proclaim between them: "The curse of Allah is on the wrong-doers" Muslims in heaven will amuse themselves by looking down on non-Muslims in Hell and mocking them while they are being tortured (see 22:19-22.

Qur'an (1:5-7) - "Show us the straight path, The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray" This is a prayer that Muslims are supposed to repeat each day. "Those who earn Thine anger" specifically refers to Jews and "those who go astray" refers to Christians (see Bukhari (12:749)).




From the Hadith:

Muslim (1:417) - Taken to mean that one's own relatives should not be taken as friends if they are not Muslim.

Abu Dawud (41:4815) - "The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: A man follows the religion of his friend; so each one should consider whom he makes his friend."

Abu Dawud (41:4832) - The Messenger of Allah [said] "Do not keep company with anyone but a believer and do not let anyone eat your food but one who is pious."

Bukhari (59:572) - "O you who believe! Take not my enemies And your enemies as friends offering them (Your) love even though they have disbelieved in that Truth (i.e. Allah, Prophet Muhammad and this Quran) which has come to you."

Ishaq 262 - "Some Muslims remained friends with the Jews, so Allah sent down a Qur'an forbidding them to take Jews as friends. From their mouths hatred has already shown itself and what they conceal is worse"

Ishaq 252 - The story of a young man who converts to Islam after hearing Muhammad. He then tells his own father that he can no longer have anything to do with him because, "I have become a Muslim and follow the religion of Muhammad." (To maintain a relationship with his son, the father "converts" as well). This is an important passage because it establishes that the principle of shunning is based merely on the status of non-Muslims as unbelievers, not on their relations toward Muslims. In this case, the father desperately loved his son and meant him no harm.


Additional Notes:
Even though they are explicitly kufr (unbelievers, Qur'an 5:17, 4:44-59) Jews and Christians are given special status in Islam. So, if Muhammad warned believers against taking them as friends, then it surely is not permissible for Muslims to befriend atheists or those of other religions.

Some Muslims interpret this to mean that they should not even act friendly toward nonbelievers. (Most, fortunately, do not). Islamic TV preacher Sheikh Muhammad Hassan says that a Muslim is not even permitted to smile at a non-Muslim. However, a fatwa from Islam Q&A, although warning Muslims against taking unbelievers as "sincere friends" does permit infidels to be dealt with "in a kind manner in the hope that they might become Muslim." (Of course, the same site also encourages Muslims to "stop keeping company with Christians and replace them with Muslim friends").

Some Muslims are embarrassed by verse 5:51 and have gone to elaborate lengths to modify its intent by interpreting the word 'friend' as "guardian" or "protector" - which are just two of several legitimate translations of the Arabic word. According to these apologists, the verse is referring to a Muslim's allegiance to a non-Muslim government (which is not all that comforting either).

However, the word awliyaa is used in verse 5:51 instead of other words that would be more direct if the meaning were "protector" - such as hamin. In fact, the politically correct translations that do use the word "protector" turn right around and use the word "friend" in other places for the same Arabic word (such as 10:62).

Apologists sometimes point to verse 60:8-9 which says that Allah doesn't necessarily forbid showing kindness to unbelievers, but to shun the ones "who warred against you on account of religion and have driven you out from your homes and helped to drive you out." This is an obvious reference to the Meccans, whose leaders expelled Muhammad and his handful of followers from Mecca (following his declaration of war against them). The verse was narrated shortly after their arrival in Medina, when it was necessary for the numerically disadvantaged Muslims to build alliances with non-Muslims in order to survive. The verses quoted above from Suras 9 and 5 are narrated at a much later, when Muslims had power. The verses expand the scope of unfriendliness to include anyone who is not Muslim.

Modern apologists such as Jamal Badawi try to cloud the straightforward interpretation of verse 5:51 by pointing out that Muslims are allowed to take non-Muslims as marriage partners, thus implying friendship. In fact, verse 2:221 explicitly forbids Muslims from marrying unbelievers, even though verse 5:5 allows it (Allah's change of mind corresponded somewhat curiously with Muhammad's own desire to marry a non-Muslim woman). Yusuf Ali reconciles the contradiction by saying that non-Muslims wives are "expected" to become Muslim.

In any event, only Muslim men are allowed to marry outside the faith. The women they marry relinquish control over their own lives, even to the extent that they cannot raise their own children in their own faith. All children must be raised Muslim. The non-Muslim woman also agrees to a lifetime of sexual servitude, and may be beaten if she does not submit.

This certainly doesn't sound like friendship to the rest of us. If your local Muslim cheerleader tries to pretend otherwise, then simply ask if a non-Muslim man may enter into this sort of "friendship" with a Muslim woman... then sit back and watch the backpedaling.

On the whole, Islam is very clear in teaching that there is no equality between believers and unbelievers, and hence no basis for a relationship of peers. Those who do not profess Muhammad are intended to exist in subjugation to those who do, then spend eternity in Hell. This does not preclude Muslims from acting friendly toward others, of course, but this does not constitute friendship as it is generally understood in the modern world.


http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/009-friends-with-christians-jews.htm

Islamic apologist will try to dress it up and make it seem that Muslims are allowed to be friends of non-believers, but strict interpretation of the Quran & Hadith tells us otherwise.

I have many muslim friends, heck even the Bible tells us not to associate & become involved with unbelievers unless it is to bring them to the light...the major difference is Jesus didn't order us to kill & mutilate the unbelievers until they fall into submission, like the Messenger of The Religion of Peace did.

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