To be clear....when a franchise tanks, you're not asking the players to intentionally lose games. They never would anyway. Many of them won't be here long term to enjoy the fruits of getting a higher draft pick. They're all playing for contracts elsewhere, so playing well and giving their team a chance to win are too important to them for that. It's not an effort by the players to suck. It's a decision by management to play young guys...to not go out and acquire a Marcus Camby at the break to try to get 3-4 more wins. It's taking a longer view from the point of the GM and the organization generally (including ownership)....recognizing that 3 more wins in a season where you're not really a contender is pretty worthless when compared to the difference between picking higher in the draft and being able to acquire the kind of player that you can truly build a franchise around. Obviously there's no guarantee of being able to get that guy....but playing for the 8 seed every year is not a better alternative in my view. IT IS NOT A FAIL-PROOF STRATEGY. THERE IS NOT A FAIL-PROOF STRATEGY. But the history of the NBA shows that, except for one notable exception, you need 1st and 2nd team All NBA type players in order to win a ring. Right now, it appears you need more than one of those guys to win. That's the goal.
Look at who I was responding to. He called re-builders jerks who want their team to fail. I am saying no...no we aren't jerks. We just understand that this method will hardly bring us championships. Also it's more like Rebuilding, no one rational expects players and coaches to go out and lose on purpose. All we expect is to just play the players with upside. Actually you are wrong here. We want the Rockets to just play the young guys...that's it. If they play the young guys and win...then guess what? That means they likely found their franchise player. No one here is going "Yeah Lin...yeah...miss that shot! Turnover the ball Lin! Yeah! Yeah!" More like. "Why are we playing Delfino?" or "Why in the world did we just go out and get Marcus Camby?" It is frustrating to see that the Rockets every year seemed so driven to win every possible game they can. Again, there is nothing wrong with winning if you are playing your young guys. If they actually go out and win games then you probably have found your player...but more often than not when you play a bunch of young players, you will lose. What I worry is the Rockets have enough veterans to not play their young guys again. Morey has put too many on this team and his coach as a coach should...will be worried about winning every game possible. Lin/Livingston/Douglas Martin/Livingston/Lamb Parsons/Delfino/Morris/White Patterson/Jones Asik/Smith/D-Mo The only rookie Mchale has to play is Jones. The rest he can bench and d-league. Also I'm completely fine with Asik and Lin getting minutes, they have upside (and Parsons too) but Martin and Delfino are just in the way right now and Patterson too only because Jones looks like he has way more potential at this point. But I'm in no rush to get rid of Patterson.
We shall win a championship with craploads of players on their rookie contracts. Let it be known for all posterity that one does not win championships in the NBA with a young team, with one notable exception.
McHale said in his interview yesterday with 790 some good things about the young guys getting their chance, but he explained how he cant just play them all together at the same time. He commented that when they play alongside a couple of vets they play much, much better at this point. In time, they will start to learn how to play the game, but right now you aren't doing them any justice by playing them all together when they could learn better by playing them the way they are playing them now. Im totally fine with that for the first half of the season. You ever heard the saying that "bad habits die hard"? You've seen it time and time again with young teams where young talented players are forced to play together too early, and it can affect their play for the rest of their careers. People are b****ing and complaining about only 2 guys playing over the young guys... THATS IT. Really its just Martin and Delfino. -The Rockets MUST play Martin. If you need any explanation on that one then you really dont know what you are talking about. -Delfino is on a very favorable contract situation for the Rockets short term. His veteran leadership is among the best in the league, and is completely on board with being a player coach unlike alot of veteran players that hate being in the situation he's in. Just like Parsons credits his experience playing with Scola, Landry credited his experience playing with Chuck Hayes, and Budinger credited his experience playing with Battier, Im confident that at least one of these rookies will be a much better basketball player having spent a season sharing minutes with him. In the end, isn't that we want??... better young talented players? If you cant see value in JUST ONE veteran player added to the mix for these reasons, then I have to question the understanding of the game of basketball and the world of professional athletics in that Rockets fan.
Thanks. Didn't know that tanking was synonymous with rebuilding. Still, if we are doing slightly better than expected, there has to be some posturing to guarantee that we don't win those extra 3 games. This is what I don't want to see.
See, I can understand the point of view that you just value a mediocre team now than a better chance at winning a championship later. You value the present over the future; that's a valid take. But to think that this (Morey's plan to continuously tread water) is a better path to being a championship contender is intellectual malpractice. Anyone who thinks this should seriously just stop posting.
It's not. Going 42-40 with a core of mostly inexperienced players is not the same as going 42-40 with Stephen Jackson and a bunch of ~30-year-old journeymen. Of course, there are people who are going to cheer for their team to dip into the 20-something-win territory emulating the aweome Sacramento model and rebuild at the breakneck pace of one Jimmer Fredette per year.
I would say the definition of tanking has changed in many people's mind. I see developing young players as rebuilding. I see intentionally not playing certain players in order to lose games as tanking. I'm all for rebuilding. I'm all against tanking.
The problem with tanking is that it's a race to the bottom. Do you think the Rockets can compete with the Magic, Bobcats, or Hornets on getting the top pick? Bobcats have an absolute dynasty on sucking.
Bobcats: Sessions / Kemba Walker, Henderson / Ben Gordon, MKG, Tyrus Thomas, Biyombo/Haywood I think you can compete with them, they have some solid players. You have the better starting lineup, but I like their bench much more, they have more experience. If I had to bet, I'd say you win ~5 games more, but it all depends on injuries. Now the Magic are better than the Rockets, imo. And the Hornets will be worse, imo, considering Eric Gordon is already injured. If Gordon was fully healthy, i'd like them better, but he's not.
See, I think you can have veteran players but they don't actually make Parsons who he is. What they do end up doing is teach them how to be professionals and what not. Coaches and the player themselves is what matters. Those guys you mentioned...Parsons, Landry, Budinger...we are not looking for another Parsons, Budinger, Landry. We are looking for another Rose, Lebron, Paul, Howard, Love etc. All of these guys were thrown into the fire from the go. Durant was on a extremely young team...and oddly enough all of their young players did just fine. If they credit a veteran it is usually "He taught me how to be a professional." but that veteran didn't give him the confidence and swagger to dominate games, that only comes from experience and it certainly doesn't come from benching them and giving them spot minutes here and there something that will frustrate most athletes. Just look at the last big time prospect the Rockets had. Yao Ming, they threw him right into the fire. No he didn't always look good but eventually he started to get it. It was fun to see him grow and learn and he wasn't traumatized by a little competition...in fact if a player can't handle the competition and instead shrinks away from it and is rattled by it (Kwame Brown...) then you'll know right away that perhaps he's not going to be what you want him to be. It's just my opinion...Lamb, D-Mo, and Jones are the highest potential guys the Rockets have had in a while. They should be getting regular minutes. I don't see how Lamb for example is going to learn anything by watching Livingston and Delfino play. Perhaps he'll learn something from them in practice and perhaps that is what you mean...but that doesn't mean they should play over him.
Using that analogy, you would rather stay at home and masturbate while waiting for a hotty to come along who will want you. We watch the games individually because we look forward to the possibility that our team will play well and win. We don't sit and hope that our team loses on the off-hand chance our draft pick will be high enough to land a star-caliber player, which is a hit-or-miss proposition by itself. I watch each game cheering and hoping they'll win and if they don't, bummer for them as players and us as fans. That's just the reality of things - we get emotionally attached to the proceedings and the outcome of the game - otherwise, we're not really fans, are we?
I do agree with this in some ways, but I just dont think these guys are elite enough to just completely dominate an NBA game RIGHT NOW. Rose/Durant/Lebron, even as raw rookies were still head and shoulders above where someone like Shane Battier is in their prime. They were in the game early on because they gave their team the best chance at winning that night. If D-Mo, Lamb, & co. did that then yeah, its a no-brainer. Im sorry, but if you're not good enough as a rookie to beat out the likes of Patrick Patterson(who I actually like) then you're just not in the same class as guys like Rose/Durant that you could afford to throw right in the starting lineup from day 1 because they will develop a Nick Young syndrom where they think they can play like Michael freakin Jordan just because their team is letting them start as a rookie. The rookies the Rockets have now, could be all-stars eventually, but from everything I've seen so far(and YES we have seen quite a bit in preseason already)they just aren't good enough to beat out regular rotation NBA players. That being said, my overall point is.... who really is standing in their way of earning minutes????? Kevin Martin, and Carlos Delfino???.... give me a break. Do we really need to go over this one??? Patrick Patterson???....Do you really think his minutes are really locked up and McHale wouldn't start someone like Jones or White over him if they were that much more talented??? I just dont see what the problem is for the pro-tanker/development fans. They are b****ing because ONE GUY isn't traded yet, and they signed literally one veteran player this offseason to literally be a lockeroom coach. If they cant win minutes on this team then people just need to face the facts that they aren't that good to begin with.
did badlee make another account? who the hell evaluates all this stuff in the preseason? I guess the Lakers stink since they didn't win a single game
Yeah I'll agree with most of this. Although just by going from pre-season I think Jones should be starting over Patterson. I think he's proved he can do the exact things Patterson does and has higher upside. Not that he's better than Patterson right now, but he can provide defense, finishing around the rim, and hitting a open shot every now and then...the very things that Patterson bring (and Jones defense could already be better than 2Pats, I'll wait for the season to say that definitely.) It's going to be tricky because I think at one point the Rockets are going to have to choose between D-Mo and Jones so I'd rather just those two battle it out and share minutes at the 4 spot...but as I said i'm not going to pull my hair out if Patterson is not traded or is starting. With that said, it's going to be difficult for Lamb to beat out Martin. Martin is so consistent in what he does it's going to be hard for any coach to bench him for a rookie who is going to be wildly inconsistent as rookies are...but I can understand that they have to play Martin because in his situation you want to raise his value for later...either that or trade him right now which they obviously are not doing. I hope Morris can get back healthy and beat out Delfino for backup minutes. He actually looked very good in the limited time he played. That's why the Delfino signing irks me. White is the prototypical guy to go to the Dleague. He's a project player. We'll see though. I am just worried that the Rockets are going to pull off another trade for some extra wins...or trade for Josh Smith...
Tanking is like flopping. While it may be strategically sound to flop, it is nevertheless a despicable thing to see. No matter how smart it is to tank (and we can distinguish between different notions of tanking, as people can mean very different things by that word), I will never be able find any enjoyment or admiration in seeing it. Before the rule changes about flopping, flopping carried high rewards with relatively low risk. The moment of shame passes in an instant and the rewards can come immediately. But with tanking, there are so many uncertainties about choosing the right player and that player panning out, and the ugliness of the whole process carries on for years. To be clear, I'm not being self-righteous towards those in support of tanking, as the problem ultimately lies with the system, which should be reformed just like flopping has been reformed. But, as with flopping, it's not what I want to see as a sports fan, no matter how strategically sound it may be.
They should have been done away with the system. It works in the NFL. Because there are so many positions, drafting one player is not going to change your fortunes. Even if it is a QB, you still need someone for him to throw the ball to, someone to run the ball, and someone to keep him standing. Usually the best teams in the NFL are the ones with the best coaches and GMs. They can always find studs no matter the round and can get the best out of every player. In the NBA, one player can basically win you games. Lebron James can take a terrible team to the championship. As a result, teams realize that having a terrible season is rewarded. I wish they would do something about it. Even something as extreme as a actual lottery...where all 14 teams(maybe extend it to the 7th and 8th seeds too) have a equal shot at getting the #1 spot. Just by doing this you'll see teams making moves every single year to get into the playoffs.
